Issues with pvp flag.

[jtw1n]

From what i've experienced so far with the flag during the first few days of pre-boarding worries me. The flag doesn't allow mutual open sea pvp it opens the flagged player to be massed or attacked by groups of random unflagged players at any time. The flag should not work this way. I understand in pvp circles anyone is able to attack at any time. However the flag should only enable mutually flagged players of opposite factions to battle. Right now most groups i've seen have 1 or no flagged players and simply sail around looking for enemies with a flag on. This makes the flag more of a waste of time and useless risk then it necessarily should be. Also group members should all have to be flagged to aid an ally with a flag.

Right now it runs like the broken overt system in Starwars galaxies. Where groups of otherwise unattackable enemies will jump you only when it is to their advantage and remain perfectly safe otherwise. Make it so both sides have to mutually agree before leaving port if they want to pick a fight or not. Don't leave those who are trying to encourage pvp on the open sea at a disadvantage.

[ironxmortlock]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

However remember that after the 22nd, there will be PvP zones around ports. These are much more interesting and it is here that the gloves come off. :D

[PandaRuns]

Sail in numbers then? I can't say I think it's "broken". I understand what you are saying but it seems you simply just trying to 1v1 people which from what I've noticed rarely happens. If people could go into a battle and know they're going to win then I don't blame them for taking advantage. I know I would lol and I don't care what anyone says...getting ganked is a part of wearing that flag...especially solo.

[jtw1n]

Im not looking or talking about 1v1 pvp I am simply looking for an open pvp system where those who wish to flag can attack one another freely. The flag as is currently leaves those who use it open to not just consensual pvp with others who are flagged but it allows a blue person to sail around unharmed and never at risk but the second someone with a flag on is alone or appears in a weak position they get jumped by several blues. These blues ie. non-pvp flagged individuals benefit from increased pvp thanks to those who have the flag on however they join it unfairly and take no risks outside the often uneven combat which they create. If someone whats to pvp or be able to attack those who are flagged they should have to openly declare themselves as a threat from the start. They also always have the power of surprise. I have generally sailed around with 3-6 person groups looking to stir up trouble and 9/10 times we find a fight its one of our members who gets a bit of distance from one another and some blues jump on the solo player. Most of the time we join inside the minute and have destroyed the attackers. Our battles between other organized groups also tend to begin against blue groups. These groups would otherwise never be able to pvp but take advantage of the one way flagging.

[Irq123]

I completely agree jtw1n.

I will most likely not be pvp flagged very often because I'll just end up being ganked by other people who sees an easy target.

If other people had to have there pvp flag on to attack me though, it would be something else since PvE'ers, traders and the like wouldn't be able to gank me.

I don't mind getting killed by real PvP'ers, but getting killed by people who are too afraid to turn on their flag really sucks.

[Wilfan]

However remember that after the 22nd, there will be PvP zones around ports. These are much more interesting and it is here that the gloves come off. :DYes, you'll have one privateer with Sanctioned Piracy cruising the red circle and 5 of his friends waiting 20 miles out.

[Jagdfalke]

you can not win in solo pvp

pvp-flag or pvp-zone, if you try solo pvp you get a 1 vs 6 fight.

[PekkaR]

Yes, you'll have one privateer with Sanctioned Piracy cruising the red circle and 5 of his friends waiting 20 miles out.

Or they could all sail together in the circle and the privateer starts the fights instead of waiting to be attacked like a pvp flagged bait.

[PekkaR]

you can not win in solo pvp

pvp-flag or pvp-zone, if you try solo pvp you get a 1 vs 6 fight.

From what I've seen, several closed beta players have reputations for soloing often. You just plan it so you're able to avoid or escape anything you don't want to fight, and pick your battles. Stealth and/or speed, generally.

[beltpouch]

you can not win in solo pvp


I would have to disagree with you on this point :-)

Solo PvP can be both fun and rewarding. There are several players who have spent a lot of time solo PvPing during closed beta and enjoyed it tremendously. You just have to figure out the best strategies. You aren't going to solo successfully in the biggest most gun ridden ship out there.

[McClellan]

I had my first couple of PvP engagement yesterday, and it was a dual experience.

On one hand I did experience the sort of thing OP says, though I managed to get away - but yes, I agree, if you want to participate in open sea PvP you have to put your ship on the line always, not just when fortune favors you.

On the other hand, I have managed to track down a solo ship... then again, some of our guys joined in so it ended a 3vs1 battle in our favor.

Fact is, it is impossible to plan your fights with random invulnerable ships cruising around which can jump into the fray at any time and ruin your day.

PvP flags exist for a reason. It is to enable people to be able to engage other PvP players anywhere, anytime. Making free targets of opportunity for otherwise untouchable players out of themselves is NOT, or *should* not be a part of flag mechanics.

[Riviera Kid]

indeed. The current system makes no sense.

The way I see it this is how it should work

Turning the flag on-

A) allows you to attack anyone and be attacked by anyone

OR

b) allows you to attack anyone with the flag turned on and be attacked by anyone with the flag on.

I think option A is more fun but B is the fairest way to handle it.
I am turning my pvp flag off the second I log back in.

BTW, how do you tell if another player has his flag ON or OFF?

Cheers.

[bpdlr]

It's called a Voluntary PvP flag for a reason...

I have worn mine since lvl1 and I don't care if I get jumped by a blue, I'll either sink him or run away. And if I get jumped by 6 I'll just run. If I am in a slow ship I'll use Stealth and take my chances.

[beltpouch]

The PvP flag is not how normal PvP is suppose to happen in this game. It was simply something that was added on as a little extra for people who wanted a bigger sense of danger. The flag is in no shape, fashion, or form the way normal PvP is suppose to occur. It is just a little bonus feature. Nothing more than that.

Normal PvP is suppose to occur by creating PvP zones.

[Wilfan]

Or they could all sail together in the circle and the privateer starts the fights instead of waiting to be attacked like a pvp flagged bait.Not very wise. First, potential targets might see 6 ships (as they're closer) and run away. Second, a stronger group might come and attack with their privs/pirates. A (properly fitted) Privateer can escape anything barring a bad spawn, while heavy hitters don't have that luxury.

Of course, in the red circle the "bait" will be the aggressor, unlike the PvP-flag bait which has to wait for others to attack.

[PandaRuns]

PvP'd with a PvP flag on.

If you don't want to get ganked...don't wear the flag or travel in groups. There's risk with the flag. If you wear the PvP flag you open yourself to be PvP'd, by players of course. It's functioning as it should imo. I can't wait until the red circle opens up and Privateers start ganking other nations in Pirate PvP. I can't wait for the QQing.

[Satier]

The people who are claiming its a bad idea is the people are the once using it in that manor i been wacked by 6 british also 6 spainish using the same strat the reason why this post was posted. So ya quiting be little wimp *** war mongers and use your attack ability only when it suites you






Eiol Satier

[Stormbad]

It's amazing, I've been sailing on Rackham with my flag on since the 7th and have yet to be jumped. Everybody seems to0 busy doing econ runs.

[Croix]

Meh, it's a two edged sword, tbh. I wear my flag because 1) i love to pvp and 2) it currently allows you to travel by the NPC ships without being jumped and wasting time otherwise spent being productive.

On the one hand, i love finding someone crazy enough to 1 v 1 me, but on the other, getting run down by 3 sloops, a Posti and a Renard Masse today and surrender of 100% before i was even damaged more then 5% being rejected is kinda silly. So instead, they had to chase me for 30 mins to get next to nothing anyhow, and as far as i could tell, probably not even a mark of victory as the few people i've sunk so far haven't given one up in the pre-board. So...what was the thrill? My chasers on my brig nearly sunk one of thiers and a whole bunch of wasted time for both parties is all that really happened. Unless of course you count the random raw materials in stacks no more then 2 or 3 i had in my hold as anything special.

In all pvp based games i've played, i've never found much joy in running people over as a group vs 1, or any outnumbered situation greater then 2:1 ever being fun for either party. I suppose it's the mentality of the players that count though. Was hoping that this game would have a bit more mature people but i'll still run with my pvp flag on regardless of what i'm hauling or piloting.

[hoosier]

How does this happen, my flag is not on, ive checked like 3 times. im sailing to santa clara to grab some oak , and a level 19 and level 21 attack me and sink my ship, there was no excaping or fighting back, kinda *****s me off..

[ispeedonthe405]

if you want to participate in open sea PvP you have to put your ship on the line always, not just when fortune favors you.


That sums it up nicely.

The concept of giving the enemy a fair, sporting chance on the battlefield went out a long time ago. The best battle is one where the enemy doesn't have a chance in hell.

To date most of my PVP battles have actually been 1:1 so I understand and agree that a "fair" contest, mano a mano, is fun. It really is. But there is no escaping or redefining the fact that voluntarily turning on that flag means, "Yes, I am choosing to open myself to whatever PVP comes my way."

[PandaRuns]

Sure they were players? lol

[hoosier]

Yes it was players, both were named and same guild title, and afterwards i had "rezz sick" said i had been defeated in PvP combat and was worth no points, etc... Was my first PvP encounter really, so i checked everything to make sure it was for real , and i didnt have something set wrong to, like my flag on by accident or something.

[PandaRuns]

I'm not sure then. :(

Maybe a bug? Doesn't make sense to me.

[Sprak]

I find the current system rather flawed, and frankly somewhat ill-advised. While I understand the PvP flag is "voluntary," I'm personally of the opinion that was mentioned by a previous poster: if you have the PvP flag on, you should be able to attack anybody, or should only be attackable by others with a PvP flag on. The current system favours gankers, and not actual PvPers. Tonight, there were 5 Spaniards sitting outside of Grenville trying to pick off French freetraders who had their PvP flag on to avoid NPCs. While I agree that if you have your PvP flag on you're fair game, I find the system incredibly frustrating. My society rounded up 5 captains to try and thwart the Spaniards. We all excitedly turned our PvP flag on, and raced from Tampa to Grenville (which was amazingly upwind both ways). To our dismay, we found the Spaniards had been harassing our captains without their PvP flags on. So, we sat outside Tampa for a while, and watched to see if they would engage us. Needless to say, when the odds were even, they didn't want to fight.

If you're going to attack somebody who's flagged, and you're not flagged, you should automatically be PvP flagged for a predetermined amount of time (the current time is very short, and defeats the purpose). I would recommend a one hour PvP flag that cannot be turned off; if you attack somebody who's PvP flagged and you're voluntarily flagged, the system would work as it does now (dock and you can turn your flag off). This would deter people from attacking only when they think they can win, which defeats the whole point of PvP. It isn't dangerous, which to me is thus not fun.

Player versus player is all about risk. The "voluntary flag" PvP in its' current form is merely opportunistic ganking. You can pick and choose when you want to attack; something I think is entirely different than PvP.

[Sykomyke421]

I think a longer "PvP aggresson" flag is needed. That is what it's called when your a blue (Non-pvp enabled) and you attack a red (pvp enabled). You get a 5 minute buff that makes you targetable. However it doesn't always work for some reason...and it's too short. I was sailing around yesterday and heard in nation chat about a flagged guy near one of our harbours. Was nearby and only saw a level 21 spaniard that was blue.

Looked again and he was gone, saw a green battle circle and noticed that this level 21 had ganked a level 7 who was in a fallback ship (with his pvp flag on). I joined and he promptly ran. True mentality of gankers. He had no qualms about attacking the level 7...even though his pvp flag was OFF. But the minute I joined he turned tail like the ganking coward he was.

PvP flags should be MUTUAL. At first I was of the mentality of "it's voluntary, you chose it". But I've come to realize that most of the battles I've been in have been where they had a number advantage. The only truly even battle I've fought is where me and a buddy caught a two players that were approx our level and fought a 2v2. Other then that it's either I have to run because it's 3v1 or they have to run because it's 1v2.

Alas, it seems fair play is not in-depth in this game. I'm all for advantages...but I'm talking about wind and positioning advantages....not player numbers.

[PandaRuns]

Well they'll never allow flagged players to openly attack players, then that would get out of hand. 9 out of 10 times people won't fight if the odds don't favor them, we do lose ships for defeat in this game afterall. The flag has it's ups and downs and is by no means meant to create a "fair fight".

[kungtotte]

The simplest solution is to make the attack-PvP-buff last longer, 30 minutes or something instead of just five. Five minutes means you can basically camp a port and attack all flagged people coming in there without running the risk of getting attacked yourself, so you'd pick all the fights.

If it lasted 30 minutes. or even an hour, instead they'd have to run away and cool off, or accept the fact that some guy they just ganked will probably return shortly with five of his friends.

It would level the field as far as flagging goes.

[Sykomyke421]

The simplest solution is to make the attack-PvP-buff last longer, 30 minutes or something instead of just five. Five minutes means you can basically camp a port and attack all flagged people coming in there without running the risk of getting attacked yourself, so you'd pick all the fights.

If it lasted 30 minutes. or even an hour, instead they'd have to run away and cool off, or accept the fact that some guy they just ganked will probably return shortly with five of his friends.

It would level the field as far as flagging goes.

The PvP aggression debuff only lasts 5 minutes and I actually had a guy I was chasing down (Once in battle, he ran got out and I was chasing him again). Found a ship he could attack (PvE) and attacked it. I couldn't follow because it wasn't my nation he attacked and he loses the PvP flag while in the battle. It's just not right...

[ispeedonthe405]

The PvP aggression debuff only lasts 5 minutes and I actually had a guy I was chasing down (Once in battle, he ran got out and I was chasing him again). Found a ship he could attack (PvE) and attacked it. I couldn't follow because it wasn't my nation he attacked and he loses the PvP flag while in the battle. It's just not right...

You're right. In that case the timer should suspend during the NPC fight. Otherwise, engaging the first NPC that comes along and sailing in circles is an easy out.



if you have the PvP flag on, you should be able to attack anybody


That would be hysterical but it doesn't make much sense. If you can attack anyone, what's the point of the attacker needing the flag? It would be a pointless step. The flag is there so people can choose to be the attackee.

[Sprak]

That would be hysterical but it doesn't make much sense. If you can attack anyone, what's the point of the attacker needing the flag? It would be a pointless step. The flag is there so people can choose to be the attackee.

It works one way, why shouldn't it work both?

[bpdlr]

I find the current system rather flawed, and frankly somewhat ill-advised. While I understand the PvP flag is "voluntary," I'm personally of the opinion that was mentioned by a previous poster: if you have the PvP flag on, you should be able to attack anybody, or should only be attackable by others with a PvP flag on.

The current system favours gankers, and not actual PvPers. Tonight, there were 5 Spaniards sitting outside of Grenville trying to pick off French freetraders who had their PvP flag on to avoid NPCs. While I agree that if you have your PvP flag on you're fair game, I find the system incredibly frustrating. My society rounded up 5 captains to try and thwart the Spaniards. We all excitedly turned our PvP flag on, and raced from Tampa to Grenville (which was amazingly upwind both ways). To our dismay, we found the Spaniards had been harassing our captains without their PvP flags on. So, we sat outside Tampa for a while, and watched to see if they would engage us. Needless to say, when the odds were even, they didn't want to fight.

If you're going to attack somebody who's flagged, and you're not flagged, you should automatically be PvP flagged for a predetermined amount of time (the current time is very short, and defeats the purpose). I would recommend a one hour PvP flag that cannot be turned off; if you attack somebody who's PvP flagged and you're voluntarily flagged, the system would work as it does now (dock and you can turn your flag off). This would deter people from attacking only when they think they can win, which defeats the whole point of PvP. It isn't dangerous, which to me is thus not fun.

Player versus player is all about risk. The "voluntary flag" PvP in its' current form is merely opportunistic ganking. You can pick and choose when you want to attack; something I think is entirely different than PvP.

Oh, please. "...gankers, and not actual PvPers".

Choosing a fight you can win is "ganking"? Last I heard, it was considered wise military strategy. Not all of us are as honourable and brave as you aspire to be. Sure, a 1v1 is fun now and then, but most of the time, I want to farm Marks, and I don't care if it's an FT who has his flag on to "avoid NPCs" or a lone NO left behind by his group, I'm going to go for fights I can win most of the time, because it's simply more profitable for me that way.

So please, get off your high horse and accept that getting caught with your flag on is a risk *you* choose to take. Which is worse, getting jumped by NPCs or by a gang of rapacious Pirates? Hmm, tough one.

The flag is fine as it is, and all this talk about not being able to attack others unless you have your flag on too is just nonsense. I have had my flag on since the 7th, I have been jumped once, and I killed the guy (Bermuda MC vs. Postillionen). If it had been a group, I would probably have run.

[bpdlr]

The simplest solution is to make the attack-PvP-buff last longer, 30 minutes or something instead of just five. Five minutes means you can basically camp a port and attack all flagged people coming in there without running the risk of getting attacked yourself, so you'd pick all the fights.

If it lasted 30 minutes. or even an hour, instead they'd have to run away and cool off, or accept the fact that some guy they just ganked will probably return shortly with five of his friends.

It would level the field as far as flagging goes.

Please, let's not cater to this nonsense. If you had a group of 6 why would you care if you got a 30-minute aggression flag instead of 5-minute? I personally am flagged anyway. I will still camp outside ports with a group who aren't flagged if I feel like it, because at the end of the day, if an FT wants to take the risk by putting on his flag, I and my group represent the bad side of that risk.

And at the same time, as you point out, we run the risk of being hunted down by the FT and 5 of his NO mates. We often have more than one of us flagged, but rarely get attacked.

[bpdlr]

It works one way, why shouldn't it work both?

Because if it worked both ways, I could then turn on my PvP flag, and then attack anyone I chose.

Oh wait, what a great idea! Damn, you're a genius!

[8Track]

Flagging is a signal you wish to participate in PvP. Not flagged, means you do not wish to.

Therefor, if you flag, you can enter a fight with another flagged person, if you are not flagged, you can not enter a fight with another person, even if someone else in your group is in that fight.

That is what a PvP flag *should* be.

[P. Pete]

How does this happen, my flag is not on, ive checked like 3 times. im sailing to santa clara to grab some oak , and a level 19 and level 21 attack me and sink my ship, there was no excaping or fighting back, kinda *****s me off..


Stop sailing invalid ships and this wont happen.

[JoeCold]

I've gotta side with the contingent for OS PvP being exclusive to both sides having PvP flags on, though I'm sorry to say I found a couple of the arguments on this side a bit, well, whiny.

My reason is that the only value to non-flagged players being able to attack flagged players is for the worst type of gankers - those whose only interest is creating maximum advantage (6 lvl 20s vs. 1 lvl 7, for all too typical example of the mindset) while never really participating in any risk.

While I appreciate the idea of seeking advantage, the above tactic isn't that of a smart, strategic, sporting player, it’s that of a ganker punk(s). And there absolutely is a difference between a player always looking for an edge and a player who is such a complete loser in RL that the only pathetic joy they can achieve is to attempt to ruin a game concept for everyone who doesn't share their play philosophy.

Players who travel in PvP packs seeking for an advantage in a fight while always being at risk of other players doing the same are good, smart players adhering to what is intended to be a fairly cut-throat game.

Players who travel in PvE packs to do the same are the kind of punks that should be tracked down and ganked in RL for the sake of Darwin.

It makes no good sense for the design to promote the later.

[kungtotte]

Please, let's not cater to this nonsense. If you had a group of 6 why would you care if you got a 30-minute aggression flag instead of 5-minute? I personally am flagged anyway. I will still camp outside ports with a group who aren't flagged if I feel like it, because at the end of the day, if an FT wants to take the risk by putting on his flag, I and my group represent the bad side of that risk.

And at the same time, as you point out, we run the risk of being hunted down by the FT and 5 of his NO mates. We often have more than one of us flagged, but rarely get attacked.
Well, my theory was that if I scoot by and get jumped by six spaniards, I can tell Halod and he'll come /moon them to death, but only if the timer was longer than five minutes. If it's only five minutes, they'll all be unflagged by the time he gets there, and he'll have to wait for them to initiate combat instead of just jumping the closest one.

This will all be pretty moot once the red circles pop up though, those who want to PvP will flock to them, and those who don't want to PvP will be **** out of luck if it turns out they have to run the circle :)

[bpdlr]

Well, my theory was that if I scoot by and get jumped by six spaniards, I can tell Halod and he'll come /moon them to death, but only if the timer was longer than five minutes. If it's only five minutes, they'll all be unflagged by the time he gets there, and he'll have to wait for them to initiate combat instead of just jumping the closest one.

This will all be pretty moot once the red circles pop up though, those who want to PvP will flock to them, and those who don't want to PvP will be **** out of luck if it turns out they have to run the circle :)

Yeah, most of these silly posts will become moot once the red circles start popping. We'll have to remind a few people of the golden rule though...

There is no crying in the red circle!