battering ram vs planks

[Mabsor]

getting fed up with pvp rapidly.
whats the point of physics this and that when its only partial ?

sailing a ship, in a straight line, someone parks in front of you, you hit them, you stop, they board you.

no sorry

if i hit your stationary side planking at an sort of velocity, with that tonnage of boat, my bow is going through your side, not bouncing off it, and you sure as hell arent going to be merrily boarding me, your going to be trying to scrape bits of your crew off my figurehead

can we please do something about this, because as it stands at the moment, its pathetic cheap no-risk tactic to stop a ship.

i wouldnt mind being stopped in my tracks, as long as your entire side armour is gone, structure to naff all %, and half your crew dead, the rest demoralised.

[8Track]

I can see why it may frustrate you, but it wouldn't really add much to the game from what I can see. The majority of people would just end up trying to ram each other. As it stands your best fix, if you're having issues with people getting in front of you to much, is to stay at a longer range, or out manouver (sp) them.

[MrThorp]

grapple defenses help too. My ships are outifftted differently for PVP vs PVE

[Sykomyke421]

In closed beta they had ships take damage from other ships impacting them. It turned into bumper boats. They took it out for good reason. They just need to figure out a practical way to penalize people for trying this, aside from the obvious person driving the ship is to just not run into them.

[NameTry2468]

In closed beta they had ships take damage from other ships impacting them. It turned into bumper boats. They took it out for good reason. They just need to figure out a practical way to penalize people for trying this, aside from the obvious person driving the ship is to just not run into them.

I don't know. To me it's still a game of bumper boats, only the bumpers get the advantage. I mean, I'll admit that I do it all the time to get a cheap board or stop a speeding ship, but even I realize it's a completely cheesy target. Even if it's necessarily damage, I agree that something does need to be done.

[bpdlr]

If you can't get out of the way when someone is using this tactic, maybe you need some sailing lessons? If you're aware of the tactic, then it should be easy to avoid it.

[Mabsor]

If you can't get out of the way when someone is using this tactic, maybe you need some sailing lessons? If you're aware of the tactic, then it should be easy to avoid it.

yes, cos every ship is the same size, and the same speed, turns at the same speed, and has the same acceleration.
oh, wait....

but thanks for the helpful input, but not really

[Slakto]

It doesn't have to be ship dmg and all that stuff.
How about if you get rammed, you get a debuff that removes most of your crew moral, maybe some guns on the side that got rammed and such? And since your crew is "shaken" you can't board for 30 sec or something.

[Spinnaker Sam]

It doesn't have to be ship dmg and all that stuff.
How about if you get rammed, you get a debuff that removes most of your crew moral, maybe some guns on the side that got rammed and such? And since your crew is "shaken" you can't board for 30 sec or something.

So then I sail around and ram ships just so they get debuffed and then I board them without having to worry about broadside shots or anti-boarding skills being used. Sounds rather exploitable, doesn't it.

The only way you could do this is if you make it a severe punishment for both sides. But, then it still leaves it open where one ship rams the other to cause the debuff while a friend gets close and boards or takes advantage of the debuff.

[ChaseSpeculaas]

You want a lesson in physics? Yeah, you'd screw up his ship pretty bad ramming his side like that, but he'd still come out on top, IRL. Your bowsprit would be caught between his two masts, rigging tangled... you'd be pinned. He could fire away at you all day and you couldn't fire back. So even in RL, you really don't want to do that, though for different reasons.

[soltr]

i've noticed if the ship hits the 'bumper' on either bow or stern going at, at least half speed then it pushes the bumper aside.

[rocktoonz]

Also, your bow armor is much weaker than someone else's side armor, so when you plow into them sideways, you would take as much or more damage than they would.

[Civilian]

Dont be dumb enough to hit him in his center of mass, if he stops in front of you, aim a bit toward the bow or stern, it will be enough to spin the enemy ship and allow you to sail past. This is not a game breaking issue, nor is it prevalent in PvP, anyone who thinks this is a valid full time PvP tactic is going to learn or quit real quick (yes i realize it has its place, but 90% of the time, trying to park on someones stern and stop them is going to end up with you swimming home)

[Mabsor]

while i agree with what most of you are saying, its prevelant enough to be annoying, and its also meta gaming tactics, which is what annoys me, you can do something cheesy with no fear of any comeback.

the only other thing i can think of that might work is make boarding require a side <-> position, not side <-> end so you cant at least board from there, tho it doesnt stop the 1 block, 2 boards, tactic.

[Surace]

IMO bring back ramming damage, make it a trade off of some armour for a chance at boarding a still mobile ship

Having said that I dont have a problem with people using blocking as it stands, just that it could be balanced. It is a valid maneuver tactic prone to counter maneuver and affected by a ship's characteristics.

[findangle]

Problem with ramming damage is accidental "friendly fire" so to speak. Ever been in a full port battle? You spend the first four mins getting rammed by your countrymen and they aren't even trying to hit you.

It would be nice if there was some deterent to this admitedly cheesy tactic (and yes it's a main staple of my pve strat).

I think where the devs are now with it is somewhere close to: yes its cheesy but the ideas we've come up with to deter it so far are even more frustrating/cheesy than the problem they are meant to address.

ultimately i think the answer is a damage model that takes into account the tonnage, the speed and the armour of the two ships involved and award damage to both ships.. this way you won't see sloops/cutters/xebecs stopping large frigates dead in thier tracks without sinking. the big guys would win but the little guys could escape.


maybe "ramming" could be made a skill requiring a certain tonnage and speed advantage over the target to be usable. it could be made a skill used in preperation for boarding. in any case it should preclude either ship sailing around the instance without major repairs first.

[Kamui]

I remember in Starfleet Battles online (Not an MMO, but you could play with multiple people online) the battles very swiftly turned into demolition derby. All people would do is get the biggest ships they could and ram. No tactics, no worrying about firing arcs or rangers, just ram. Got real old, real fast. Glad this game isn't like that.

I wouldn't mind ramming IF it was set up to deter people. Such as a very good chance your ship would be trapped by the enemy ship and sucked down into the depths... Or ramming destroyed any frontal equipment you have slotted, permanantly. Make it possible, but very dangerous to do.

[Macleod]

During Port battles you can get stuck with you allies but in the OS pvp battles i never got stuck on a enemy or friend like. Maybe it should be a lesson not to rush towards your enemy and try to 'make them' sail into the wind.

There are outfittings to defend you from boarding but the best is just sail past him which isn't very hard todo. (ofcourse without sails it gets a different ball game)

in PvP is one rule : speed is your live, never and never lay still

Also you can push your enemy out of the way IF you have the bigger ship.

Historical captains stay away from ramming as most seafolk couldn't swim and the kiel could break from the stress ramming gives.

[Calendyr]

I remember in Starfleet Battles online (Not an MMO, but you could play with multiple people online) the battles very swiftly turned into demolition derby. All people would do is get the biggest ships they could and ram. No tactics, no worrying about firing arcs or rangers, just ram. Got real old, real fast. Glad this game isn't like that.

I wouldn't mind ramming IF it was set up to deter people. Such as a very good chance your ship would be trapped by the enemy ship and sucked down into the depths... Or ramming destroyed any frontal equipment you have slotted, permanantly. Make it possible, but very dangerous to do.

Since when can you ram in SFB? I have not played for years but this is a new rule if you can do it.

[Calendyr]

I did not know you could board that way. I am happy to know because boarding is the way I win most of my fights and it gets really tiresome managing to go side by side an other ship, slow down to 6 kts and fail to grapple only to see him turn away and flee.

I use a boarding booster on my ship (can't remember what it is) and I use that skill that forces you to have ant-personnel shots loaded in your guns (can't remember the name either) and even with that, and the ennemy crew being down to less than 10, I sometimes am not even offered the boarding option saying that my chances are too low.

I would really like to see the chart of bonuses and penalities for boarding chances so I can understand what the heck is going on.

But from now on, it will be parking in front of ships if that improves success chances.

[P. Pete]

As long as the OP realises that he'd still come of second best when ramming like that IRL too ...

He'd even likely sink first due to planking being buckled out of position causing leaks.

[Kamui]

This was the computer version Calendyr, not the P&P version.

[AxilX]

What i don't understand is why collision damage was removed... So when it was in, people used it. It was a valid tactic of the day, and the only reason it wasn't used often was A.) It was hard to pull off against an intelligent defender, and B.) it messed your boat up pretty badly to ram someone, just not quite as badly as being rammed (assuming you T'd him). So since A is already true, and B is easy to program... what was the issue?

[Sykomyke421]

Because the game is about shooting cannon balls, not ramming boats.

[AxilX]

i'm sorry, i thought the game was about pirates and nationals engaged in navel combat *rolls eyes* Should ramming be a tactic used often? no. How do you limit that? Good game design. If the results of ramming are largely unpredictable, and always result in damage to the rammer, as well as the rammed, then what exactly is the problem? And by the way, as well as shooting cannons, i can also board, and move my ship around quite a bit.... perhaps we should get that removed.

The bottomline is, ramming can not be exploitable, or result in an unrealistic/unintended preference towards ramming, if it's designed properly.

[jayfe]

i wouldnt mind being stopped in my tracks, as long as your entire side armour is gone, structure to naff all %, and half your crew dead, the rest demoralised.

This is way overboard. Between two ships of relatively equivalent sizes, it should be rigging damage on both and a bit of armor damage on the target. Maybe a few crew.

However, they should look at size - a 3-deck SOL should cream a tiny sloop if the sloop is dumb enough to get in the way.

Btw, I don't think that this is overall a bad simulation - ships were boarded pretty easily back in the day, from my reading.

-Jeff

[P. Pete]

Its silly, if ramming does anything worthwhile, it then becomes the tactic of choice, instead of how it really was, very very very rare.

as I said above, you'd be lucky to not sink if you ram someone IRL.

at the time, ships were not constructed to take such forces.

right now, ramming has an ok effect.

if your going to run into someone then try turning, if your in a big heavy ship and not able to push them out of the way then you wouldn't have done significant damage anyway.

if your in a smaller ship and can't sail behind them, then your doing something wrong.

if someone tries to cut you off, aim at their stern.

[Mabsor]

As long as the OP realises that he'd still come of second best when ramming like that IRL too ...

He'd even likely sink first due to planking being buckled out of position causing leaks.

yeah id accept that, even both of us sinking. i dont mind it "in context". i seriously object to it as it is atm "lol i can stop your ship at ZERO cost to myself and board you easily" which is dire

it would be a stupid tactic to do in real combat unless you were desperate, you certainly wouldnt use it as your opening move

[AxilX]

exactly, if ramming historically wasn't a preferred tactic, then obviously if implemented *correctly* it would not be in game either. Ramming should do, exactly what it would do if two ships really were to hit each other.

[P. Pete]

Except that "IRL" not only would you stop, you'd likely sink too even without the other ship boarding you.
so as it is, the other person still has to win boarding to beat you, and really if you ran into him then why didn't you evade? ships don't magically just get infront without you being able to see them.

I've never been stopped dead in pvp by running into someone and I've done a lot of PVP.

also the larger ship generally wins, as I mentioned above, so even when I've sailed in front of a SOL during beta, I didn't stop him dead, he just pushed me along.
but thats his fault for being caught alone in a SOL anyway.

seriously though, its not really a problem.

if damage was on though, it would be a big problem.

no one would think twice about sacrificing a 3rd rate or a Hercules frigate to ram a 1st rate SOL in port battles so as to take them out of the battle.
even if it took 2 of those to sink the 1st rate it'd be a win.

1st rate = 10 mill db give or take.

3rd rate is way way way less.

whats more, in PvE the AI don't even think twice about sailing into you.

[Tishlin]

You want a lesson in physics? Yeah, you'd screw up his ship pretty bad ramming his side like that, but he'd still come out on top, IRL. Your bowsprit would be caught between his two masts, rigging tangled... you'd be pinned. He could fire away at you all day and you couldn't fire back. So even in RL, you really don't want to do that, though for different reasons.

Not to mention, in all likelihood, your masts going by the board and your bow stove in.

[Tishlin]

This is way overboard. Between two ships of relatively equivalent sizes, it should be rigging damage on both and a bit of armor damage on the target. Maybe a few crew.

However, they should look at size - a 3-deck SOL should cream a tiny sloop if the sloop is dumb enough to get in the way.



No, in all likelihood the SOL's underside planking would be stove in as it rides over the sloop, leading to flooding and an eventual foundering.

[Aeiedil]

Going with a lot of what has been said already I know but my 2c

In beta when ramming would cause damage I was tending to suicide charge when up against multiple NPC's, firing off broadsides at other targets and then ramming into another enemy, was a bit silly really so I prefer it when ramming doesn't cause damage

One solution could be a minor cooldown on boarding after you ram or are rammed to simulate the crew of each ship being thrown about from the impact, possibly with a general upgrade that allows crews to brace for impact and so reduces the cooldown by a % or something, make it so that if you plan to include bumpercars/ramming in your tactic that you have to equip for it

On a note about ramming demolishing the rammed ships structure/armour/sails etc due to realism, as has been said in reality the ship ramming would likely come off as bad or worse than the rammed ship and it would be a suicide tactic used.

[metus]

Sounds like the transfer of momentum is already there. i think they should just increase the effect to avoid the full-stop as described by the OP.

in regards to damage, i'd say keep no-damage to sidestep all exploits.

[P. Pete]

You generally don't stop dead when your in a ship with any decent momentum.

Obviously a larger ship will tend to stop a smaller ship more rapidly then a smaller ship will stop a larger one.

eg: a 1st rate SOL will push a Hercules frigate quite some distance if he had some speed up.