45 second exploit plus more

[Geograd]

I wanted to discuss this more because this is a definite exploit (argue it all you want) and here's an example why:

Say you are lvl 21 and you have a good ship and you are attacked in PvP by another lvl 21 in a good ship, and a lvl 21 who just lost his good ship and is now in a crappy ship looking to get back his good ship (Yes this is a real situation).

You are fighting against both and of course you are trying to take out the best ship first because otherwise he'll be sinking you while you target the worst ship. So you get into boarding combat say that YOU initiated. He sits in the back for 45 secs + the time it takes to actually load the boarding so let's say a minute. So during that minute you are being bombarded by the weaker of the ships without being able to do ANYTHING. Now you fight the combat and it's a good fight and you manage to win, you get out of the boarding and find out you are almost destroyed because the weaker ship has been sitting on your stern pumping you full of bronze shot. And then you are destroyed.

Now I'll put it into numbers:

most ships around lvl 10 or so (the weaker ship) have 14 topdeck guns with a reload rate of about 20 seconds. If they have any bonuses it could be less or it could be a bit more. Now during that 1minute that the person you boarded was sitting there waiting for the timer they've been able to get off 3-4 full shots. Now your ship is probably already pre-damaged from the battle to get to boarding. On a lvl 21 ship the stern armor is around 150-200. Those 3-4 shots are at 20+ dam per cannon. So within those 3-4 shots you can be almost completely destroyed. And this is only during that one minute that the enemy you boarded was sitting there doing nothing!

It was offered in another post the idea of during that 45 seconds, or until boarding combat starts that both ships are invincible. I believe this should be the case 100% because if you have to wait 45 seconds for combat to start in boarding, it should be the same for non-boarding, especially when your ships are completely vulnerable.

Now don't say I'm crying/whining/anything else you want to call it in the red circle because I'm not. This has not happened to me I'm speaking of this hypothetically and pointing out valid issues. Feel free to debate them with INFORMATION not just threats and insults.

Edit: OOO I just thought of something that may add a bit of help in the "vulnerable" state of boarding as well. What if the ships that are in boarding combat are continuously rotating around in a circle (like on the OS when you come across a battle you see the ships circling around) This will make it so that anyone else in the battle will have to follow the ship it's wanting to firing on and not just remain behind the stern pumping it full of broadsides?

The second thing I wanted to discuss is that when you come out of combat your skills are reset and not the same as when you went in. I don't know if it's the case that they reset when you initialize a boarding combat, but if that is the case then that needs to change. If you have defense 2 on before you board, then it should be on WHILE you are boarding. This should not disappear when you board.

[KittyMac]

They should simply make ships in boarding combat immune during the "waiting to start battle" phase. I don't care if they're hitting me while I'm sword fighting, but if you're going to make the avcom wait an arbitrary amount of time then they should extend that to the ship combat as well.

[Monthar]

Do you realize there's damage reduction while in boarding combat?

[Mamluk]

I think its a great compromise to make the ships invincible those 45 seconds. Hope devs consider this.

[Geograd]

Do you realize there's damage reduction while in boarding combat?

Nope I didn't know this, but still 3-4shots at 20+ dam for 7 cannons, even with dam reduction against someone's stern that's a LOT of damage while you are just waiting for boarding to start.

I don't mind being shot at while I'm fighting in boarding combat, that's normal. I just mind it while I'm forced by the game to wait for 45 seconds.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Boarding is ridiculously fast and easy anyhow, particularly when one volley of grape + rake can completely obliterate a crew to 1 wave, then board and win in 30 seconds. The 45 seconds prevents a person from grape/****** cheap kills in hopeless battles before his 5 teammates can help their teammate so much. I don't have a problem with it.

[Hotan]

Baording combat is too fast. Complaining about a 45 second exploit, while exploiting avcom speed while outnumbered is hypocritical at best.

[Geograd]

You both say boarding is too fast, boarding is too fast. Yes the actual boarding COMBAT might be too fast, but it takes quite a time to actually get in and board a PC unless they are stupid and let you get close enough to pin them and board against the wind. Otherwise it takes nearly 10 mins+ to wear down a ships sails especially with repair tools, so please come up with a better argument.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

so please come up with a better argument.Killing crew is far too easy, both with guns and skills. Boarding itself is far too fast, especially when they have 1 wave (aka, no prayer). I mean honestly, taking out a 450+ crew on a SOL with one blast of grape from an arcadia and smashing one skill is just dumb. Its even dumber that there is no possible defense to these things, and even rum is far too slow to counter it.

Its also dumb that you can board and take over a ship from 100% crew to dead in less than a minute with ease, if you get lucky enough to get in range and click the button. You don't always have to take out their sails, merely get them to stop and/or have lots of +boarding and/or get a lucky roll. I've seen this tactic used dozens of times -- you know you are ****ed, so you stop your ship and hope for the cheap board to **** over the other guy by costing him a durability. Its easy and works a surprising amount of the time.

Its easy to get cheap boarding kills, and hurts the strategy of the game. It turns a great PvP game into a contest to see who can smash their easy mode skills for a chance at a board that cannot hurt them if they get it first. And we all know AC isn't this games strong point.

[dpdlc]

Here's a crazy idea.

When boarding all ship damage is replicated, since both the ships are tied together. You deal 400 damage to enemy ship during boarding, 400 damage is dealt to you allies ship.

Simple elegant solution. As you shouldn't really be shooting at enemy ship while your allied captain is fighting on the deck.

[Poe]

As easy as it is not to get boarded even when dead in the water with skills and gear combo the whole "we need to let players sink people in boarding" is crap anyway. When you could bump and board someone at full sails consistently there was something to it, but now that they have taken that out its unnecessary. The 45 seconds of standing there getting blasted on while in mele is just a fruity aroma on top of a steaming pile.

The DR bonus while you are boarding is a joke. The way we keep from having our guys who are in a boarding action from getting sunk is to park right behind them and block. We have against people that didn't know what they were doing when in a 3 on 5 sank one of theres who boarded one of ours while under fire from the other 4... Its that easy.

Its just crap the way it works now and should be done away with. Firing into a mele that your mates are in with cannons... It's madness, and we are not even in Sparta. :D

[Geograd]

Here's a crazy idea.

When boarding all ship damage is replicated, since both the ships are tied together. You deal 400 damage to enemy ship during boarding, 400 damage is dealt to you allies ship.

Simple elegant solution. As you shouldn't really be shooting at enemy ship while your allied captain is fighting on the deck.

I actually agree with this 100%. I don't believe there should be any outside combat against either ship because both the enemy captain AND your ally captain is on either ship at any point in time. Also what would be awesome if they could figure it out is to not have Instanced boarding. I will make a separate post on this in a minute. Another thing I believe should be in the game is friendly fire. If you are firing at a ship and your ally gets infront of you and the other ship just before you fire and you fire on accident then your ally should get hit. There shouldn't be an X on your cannons.

[jayfe]

To the OP - your numbers don't make sense. You assume that the second ship starts on your stern when you start to board. Why do you board when someone is raking your stern? The answer is that you don't. You pick your moment to board, and the other ship has to get that raking position, and that takes time.

Yes, you still are taking damage while being boarded, but I feel that you exaggerated the situation quite a bit.

-Jeff

[bpdlr]

The 45-second delay is crap, we all agree on that. But until the devs realise what an exploit this can be, the solution is easy - don't board when you are outnumbered.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

The 45-second delay is crap, we all agree on that.No, we don't.

[bpdlr]

No, we don't.

Oh? Hmm, I thought that was a moot point. The fact that someone can remain invulnerable to your attacks for 45 secs while those on the outside can still damage you is Working As Intended, is it?

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Oh? Hmm, I thought that was a moot point. The fact that someone can remain invulnerable to your attacks for 45 secs while those on the outside can still damage you is Working As Intended, is it?Yeah, its a game mechanic. Certainly less troublesome to me than allowing people with faster PCs to start moving before their opponent has loaded into the instance.

[bpdlr]

Yeah, its a game mechanic. Certainly less troublesome to me than allowing people with faster PCs to start moving before their opponent has loaded into the instance.

You make a fair point.

[Geograd]

Yeah, its a game mechanic. Certainly less troublesome to me than allowing people with faster PCs to start moving before their opponent has loaded into the instance.

Yes, this works for the BOARDERS, but not for the battle outside of the ship boarding. You keep talking about boarding and just boarding. We are all talking about how your ship is vulnerable for a full minute before the boarding battle even begins. I like the 45 seconds, but I don't like how that "the game mechanic" that you are speaking of doesn't effect the entire game only the boarding instance. It should affect both the boarding instance and the ship battle instance. Plain and simple.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

No, because boarding and being able to get a kill under circumstances where you can't last 45 seconds otherwise is cheap as hell, and borderline exploitative. Cheap boarding itself needs a mega nerf, but short of that, I am glad to see a mechanic in place to limit the effectiveness of this cheap tactic somewhat.

[Halod Crane]

Boarding remains the most viable way to quickly kill someone because said people are not defending against it. Saying how easy it is to board and kill someone without identifying how easy it is to AVOID being boarded is a very 1-sided argument.
It is currently an arms race, people who like to board are fitting +boarding items and spec'ing for +boarding. People who don't like to be boarded refuse to get +boarding defense items and specing for +boarding defense. Or, you know, firing grape BACK at the guy who's trying to board you.

There is a solution in place for you, but you have to give up some of your precious reload or damage to take it. Just like those who are spec'd for boarding have.
Boarding combat is an integral part of sail combat, I love how it works and find the dynamic of the 45s wait time frustrating but interesting. There is risk in boarding a ship in group combat, and tactics must be considered. I think a lack of understanding of how boarding works is the root cause of frustration, everyone is upset the first time their ship gets sunk due to the 45s delay. They get over it, and learn to deal with it and realize it's actually an interesting dynamic.

Keep in mind, the 45s is not just for the defending captain. If a lesser ship grapples a groups power, the offensive captain can wait the 45s as well just to keep that ship motionless and out of the fight. It is a two way street that FLS has decided they want to keep.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Saying how easy it is to board and kill someone without identifying how easy it is to AVOID being boarded is a very 1-sided argument.There is no defense against blowing up someone's crew. You can easily shred crew faster than it can be replaced, even with rum currently active. If they grapple first, you have no choice but to desperately pray they didn't blow up your crew. All the cards are in the hands of the grappler, and lucky grapples happen (why not, rats have nothing to lose?). There is only defense against grappling, and even that is largely **** for nationals (I realize you rats have a +45 buff, but we do not), given that rats can cut your speed low enough with a stack of unremovable debuffs to bring you to a crawl and dart in front of you, then roll the dice and potentially get lucky.

Finally, why should I be forced to bring an exact skill/gear combo AND THEN sail in circles around a crippled and outnumbered foe to prevent a cheap grape and **** that can let a rat pull off a full repaired and max crew ship of a fleet and eliminate them in 15 seconds? Its akin to letting people have a chance of one shotting someone regardless of the situation -- its not fun, its not based on skill, and it adds very little to the game.

Why not nerf the ****ty mechanic?

[Mabdegonian]

Keep your speed above 6 knots and dont let people board you when there are others that are going to blow your ship to toothpicks. OH and dont be stupid enough to board when there is someone that can take advantage of your helpless ship.

There is a 30% damage reduction on all damage done to a ship while it is in a boarding action.

My thought is if you dont want people using the time to their advantage stop getting into boarding actions in situations where you can be returning to a shot up ship. Blaming a timer over a loss because of a poor tactical decision is not really kosher.

[Geograd]

Excusing an exploit under the guise of bad tactics is not very kosher either. The 45 seconds that the game forces you to wait (you don't have to if both captains move into the battle area, but if one sits and waits then the max is 45 seconds FORCED) should not affect the rest of the battle seeing as it is a forced waiting time. If it wasn't a forced time then I'd have no problem with it, but it's a system that is in place that doesn't affect everything that it SHOULD affect.

[david31741]

I have a serious issue with people abusing the the "timer" on boarding combat. When people sit back and wait to engage in the boarding combat...all the while knowing their friend is blasting your ship...that is expliting a weak design.

This isn't about how easy boarding is to accomplish or defend against...this is about being unable to defend/attack due to a timer in place.

Either dramatically reduce the timer on boarding combat "invulnerability" or make the ships that are engaged in boarding combat immune to attacks - while they are in boarding combat.

It is a legit arguement and a very viable solution imo.

[undrtakr87]

Simple solution: lower the timer from 90 seconds to 20 seconds (I get 90 second timers on boarding, dunno how you guys get 45).

Crew damage is not too high and not too low. While a scout ship is destroying a warships crew, the warship can just as easily do the same to the scout ship, or even do heavy amounts of structure damage to the weaker ship. Boarding is a very viable tactic in this game.

[Halod Crane]

Clearly there are two issues here, one being that apparently nationals lose all boarding combat situations due to the pirates superior skillset. Awesome, I had no idea you guys couldn't load grape and have no skills or items that add +defense for boarding or reduce an enemies overall crew. Additionally, it is good to know that florentine, fencing and dirty fighting are all more powerfull when in the hands of a pirate... even though they're identical for nationals. I 'love' the fact that pirates are better at boarding than nationals... nationals can be better at piloting the floating tub called an SOL. Clearly, there is no adequate defense in place to defend against boarding (but only if you're a national). Pirates are overpowered, yay! Boarding is here to stay, hopefully FLS changes it so you don't have to learn how to deal with it. If they do not... I can refer you to some nationals on Rackham who are quite good at handling it, perhaps they can make some sort of informative post in the pvp section on how to deal with a vessel that wants to board you. Please feel free to PM me and I will be happy to give you some names.

The other being that the 45s or 90s or whatever is bad and should be dealt with differently. I'm avoiding that one as I think it's a dead horse.

I just wanted to point out, and I know this is nearly commiting treason but uh. Pirates have less crew than nationals so... uh... advantage nationals. Well, pirates using the brutality line ... which they all do.

[koulchin]

Boarding is ridiculously fast and easy anyhow, particularly when one volley of grape + rake can completely obliterate a crew to 1 wave, then board and win in 30 seconds. The 45 seconds prevents a person from grape/****** cheap kills in hopeless battles before his 5 teammates can help their teammate so much. I don't have a problem with it.


Grape/rake+board is only viable if your target is already slowed down to <6knots. That can be due to:
A: Sailing directly into the wind with enemies within 100 yd. If that is the case, you deserve to get boarded and lose your ship.
B: You're demasted. If that is the case, you're going to get boarded and lose your ship pretty much no matter what you do. Worst case, your enemy leaves you alone for a few minutes while he sails the 400 yd to sink your buddies, while plinking you with bar shot to keep you in combat and at 0 sails, then comes back to board you.

Personally, I like the 45 second invulnerability idea. Either just give a straight up invulnerability for the first 45 seconds of boarding combat, or even better, give ships invulnerability (to counter enemies already nearby) and increased repair (to counter stalling until help arrives) until the *enemy* captain enters the battle area. That way if you get boarded, you have an incentive to get into the middle and make your enemy's ship attackable. Of course the enemy uses the same logic to make your ship attackable, so you both charge the middle as soon as you load, getting rid of this waiting nonsense. Won't help with boarding in 1v5 battles where one person spanws far from the other four, but would eliminate the cheesing from most other situations.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Clearly there are two issues here, one being that apparently nationals lose all boarding combat situations due to the pirates superior skillset. Awesome, I had no idea you guys couldn't load grape and have no skills or items that add +defense for boarding or reduce an enemies overall crew. Additionally, it is good to know that florentine, fencing and dirty fighting are all more powerfull when in the hands of a pirate... even though they're identical for nationals. I 'love' the fact that pirates are better at boarding than nationals... nationals can be better at piloting the floating tub called an SOL. Clearly, there is no adequate defense in place to defend against boarding (but only if you're a national). Pirates are overpowered, yay! Boarding is here to stay, hopefully FLS changes it so you don't have to learn how to deal with it. If they do not... I can refer you to some nationals on Rackham who are quite good at handling it, perhaps they can make some sort of informative post in the pvp section on how to deal with a vessel that wants to board you. Please feel free to PM me and I will be happy to give you some names.

The other being that the 45s or 90s or whatever is bad and should be dealt with differently. I'm avoiding that one as I think it's a dead horse.

I just wanted to point out, and I know this is nearly commiting treason but uh. Pirates have less crew than nationals so... uh... advantage nationals. Well, pirates using the brutality line ... which they all do.Save the hyperbole for your blog. Inside the AC instance, both are equal. Getting there, rats have easier skills (although its possible you haven't ever leveled high enough to see most of them on either side). Besides, boarding is cheap regardless of who does it.

Grape/rake+board is only viable if your target is already slowed down to <6knots.Not exactly, but yes, boarding is not in a void. But when its available, its far too easy. In many instances, its also far too easy to get.

What needs to happen is skills like rake + plague ship need to die. Then grape needs a substantial nerf, such that it takes roughly the same number of volleys to kill crew as it does to blast away armor and say 50% structure. If you lose a board, you lose, regardless of who initiates. Furthermore, I think it would be healthy for the game to have a floor of 3 waves, regardless of crew going in, so each side had a somewhat decent chance of victory (increase the max waves tho, from 10 to 15).

[undrtakr87]

What needs to happen is skills like rake + plague ship need to die. Then grape needs a substantial nerf, such that it takes roughly the same number of volleys to kill crew as it does to blast away armor and say 50% structure. If you lose a board, you lose, regardless of who initiates. Furthermore, I think it would be healthy for the game to have a floor of 3 waves, regardless of crew going in, so each side had a somewhat decent chance of victory (increase the max waves tho, from 10 to 15).

Again, crew damage is not too high and not too low. While a scout ship is destroying a warships crew, the warship can just as easily do the same to the scout ship, or even do heavy amounts of structure damage to the weaker ship. Boarding is a very viable tactic in this game. Heavy round shot does a small, yet noticable amount of crew damage as well, and even sail damage. Maybe it needs a nerf as well? You have to be extremely close to another ship for grapeshot to be accurate - they have different types of ammo in the game for a reason. It's perfect the way it is.

Also, there are outfittings for every nation that increase grappling defense substantially if I remember correctly... use them.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Again, crew damage is not too high and not too low.Thanks, but that is still not a reason or evidence. Here is my evidence - everyone knows you can shred crew + board successfully far faster than you can use round. Both paths to victory should be comparably difficult, IE, take comparable time and shot. They don't now.

[undrtakr87]

Thanks, but that is still not a reason or evidence. Here is my evidence - everyone knows you can shred crew + board successfully far faster than you can use round. Both paths to victory should be comparably difficult, IE, take comparable time and shot. They don't now.

Read the rest of the post beyond the first line? Without boarding, scout ships/speed tackles basically become pointless and you have only 6v6 warship battles. Who would take the time to use crew shot if it took as long to kill a ship's crew as it does to destroy the entire ship? That argument seems invalid to me. Also, pirates would be worse off than they already are.

[Undrsiege]

They get over it, and learn to deal with it and realize it's actually an interesting dynamic.

Some Never get over it and claim not to use it except when it is to the advantage..

<Cough>

[Caldes]

Read the rest of the post beyond the first line? Without boarding, scout ships/speed tackles basically become pointless and you have only 6v6 warship battles. Who would take the time to use crew shot if it took as long to kill a ship's crew as it does to destroy the entire ship? That argument seems invalid to me. Also, pirates would be worse off than they already are.


When you say 'Worse off', do you mean in terms of port battles or just in general? You need to be specific, because the only thing I can see Rats being at a disadvantage in is in Large Group PvP (ie, Port Battles).

I would propose that DR be applied to crew as well, based on ship type. I've found that damage can be applied to crew horribly faster than to ship, but in some cases, that makes sense- a larger ship firing grape at a smaller ship IS going to devistate their crew. However, when I can take a Belle and grape away the crew of a much larger frigate (NPC mind you) in a pair of boradsides, something is amiss. Since, on larger ships, a goodly portion of fighting crew is below decks, were grape and the like would probably be less effective, would it not make sense for DR to be applied to the crew?

As for skills like rake and plague ship: do they have a seperate range requirement, or do you simply need to be in range with your guns?
And why do they make an ability like Rake anyways? Is that not what you are doing when you fire AP shot at someone?

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Without boarding, scout ships/speed tackles basically become pointless and you have only 6v6 warship battles. I take it you have never played endgame? Scouts are worthwhile for spike damage damage, *** shots, one shots, and agility, even using only round. Even as it is, I go about 50/50 on my kills round vs board as a privateer in pvp.

[Halod Crane]

Boarding is not a broken pvp dynamic, there are numerous and effective ways to avoid being boarded. It is not an unbalancing item in group fights, as if you're any sort of group at all you shouldn't let a lone straggler get far enough away from you to get boarded. And at the end of the day, it is still a captain vs. captain fight that comes down to relative skill. We all have access to the same styles, and we all have access to grape shot. If you get attacked 6 waves to 1 wave and you still have your sails, you made a mistake. FYI, unless you let yourself get T-Boned you have the EXACT same chance as the attacker does to initiate boarding. This mythical 'attacker' advantage is just that, a myth. Boarding is risky to both parties.

Pirates have speed skills, speed debuffs and boarding skills. They also lose -40% of their crew when using said speed skills. So either they can't catch you, or they have an inherent -40% damage to their crew.

Lastly, The statement 'pirates have an easier time boarding' is true only if the national refuses to use grape shot and is terrible at keeping a good defensive position. In either case they're going to lose anyway, boarding just speeds things up. The concept of being boarded while you have full sails takes exceptional skill on the part of the attacker, but more than that, it takes A MISTAKE ON THE PART OF THE TARGET.

Stop making said mistakes, boarding problem solved. Boarding isn't 'cheap', it's taking advantage of a player mistake. Everyone should be looking for an opportunity to board. Everyone should be defending against it (either with speed, items, tactics, positioning or all of the above.)

[Garbad_the_Weak]

Boarding is not a broken pvp dynamic, there are numerous and effective ways to avoid being boarded. It is not an unbalancing item in group fights, as if you're any sort of group at all you shouldn't let a lone straggler get far enough away from you to get boarded. And at the end of the day, it is still a captain vs. captain fight that comes down to relative skill. We all have access to the same styles, and we all have access to grape shot. If you get attacked 6 waves to 1 wave and you still have your sails, you made a mistake. FYI, unless you let yourself get T-Boned you have the EXACT same chance as the attacker does to initiate boarding. This mythical 'attacker' advantage is just that, a myth. Boarding is risky to both parties.

Pirates have speed skills, speed debuffs and boarding skills. They also lose -40% of their crew when using said speed skills. So either they can't catch you, or they have an inherent -40% damage to their crew.

Lastly, The statement 'pirates have an easier time boarding' is true only if the national refuses to use grape shot and is terrible at keeping a good defensive position. In either case they're going to lose anyway, boarding just speeds things up. The concept of being boarded while you have full sails takes exceptional skill on the part of the attacker, but more than that, it takes A MISTAKE ON THE PART OF THE TARGET.

Stop making said mistakes, boarding problem solved. Boarding isn't 'cheap', it's taking advantage of a player mistake. Everyone should be looking for an opportunity to board. Everyone should be defending against it (either with speed, items, tactics, positioning or all of the above.)Sorry, this is all wrong. Please see prior posts, I cba to retype it.

[bpdlr]

Sorry, this is all wrong. Please see prior posts, I cba to retype it.

Garbad, that is lazy. Everyone knows boarding can be quicker than killing, that's not the point. The point is, it's the same for both sides. Boarding involves much more risk than standing off and killing, as the boarder also runs the risk of being boarding himself. I learnt this lesson the hard way, taking someone's sails right down and closing in for boarding only to find myself being Terrorised, boarded and sunk.

[Garbad_the_Weak]

The point is, it's the same for both sides.Well, no, rats have it easier, but that's not the point.

The point is it is less tactical, too fast, and too easy compared to regular combat. It harms the depth of the game by creating some cheesy and unrealistic situations, such as instantly blowing up an untouched SOL and killing it in 45 seconds, while his 5 guildmates can't move fast enough to intervene. Its degenerate when a person can instagib another ship in 45 seconds regardless of the situation.

Grape and rake and so on need a nerf. It needs to take longer to kill crew, especially the last 25% or so of the ship's max. Boarding and failing needs a severe consequence for the attacker, if not outright defeat. Boarding itself needs to take longer and be less one sided (again, I think a floor so say 9 v 3 is at least somewhat more reasonable).

[CShaughnessy]

I mean honestly, taking out a 450+ crew on a SOL with one blast of grape from an arcadia and smashing one skill is just dumb. Its even dumber that there is no possible defense to these things, and even rum is far too slow to counter it.


Anyone who sails an SOL and does not have For God And Country 2 is really asking for it. Sure, the Arcadia can rake+grape and take down 450 (well probably not 450, but some huge number); however, then the NO activates FGAC2 and his crew won't drop much further no matter how many grape broadsides he takes. At that point, he can use rum or Rally the Crew (which he got even though he didn't want it on the way to Invincible) IF he deems it necessary to bring his crew back up to near-perfect levels.

[Stormbad]

I agree that crew needs some resistance proportional to the remaining crew. As the crew number drops, it is harder to injure/kill the remaining crew. It makes sense.

On the flip side, I think your offensive boarding percentage should be adjusted depending on the remaining crew numbers so it should go down as crew goes down. It should NOT adjust boarding defense, leave those to the poodles.

[Claren]

As I don't do boarding, and try to avoid getting boarded, I had no idea about this timer.
Do you say one can not run up to the enemy captain and hit him over the head until he moves or the 45 sec timer runs out? What about his crew, are they immune to attacks too?

But anyway, this timer things sounds very good to me. Boarding should be a thing to do when there is an opportunity for it, not as a quick way to end a ship battle. I doubt any captain in real life would even think of leaving his ship dead in the water with several enemy ships around.

Any changes in the game to make boarding even easyer will destroy it.
There are 200+ other games where we can wave sticks at each other, in POBTS I want to sail ships and exchange broadsides. If this games degenerates to ship battles consisting of 2 broadsides each and then boarding I will be out of here. There are so many other games where avatar combat is so much better than in POTBS, so if avatar combat is what it comes down to, I will not choose POTBS.

[Alexande]

Muskets.

Both sides should be allowed to exchange musket volleys as soon as the boarding commences and until one side charges the other to end it.

[Trobon]

I'll put here what I wrote in the Avatar Combat Section:

Personally I think that there should be a 45 second invuln when you enter boarding combat to offset the fact that they can just sit there or even that they might be in an older computer and have to sit there. Also there should be a penalty to the captains' movement (about 10%) so the captian can't just run around avoiding combat. One of the devs have already said that they think it's fine that you can get attacked while in boarding combat and that they like that. However, they said they don't like that it's eing used in this way.

[Halod Crane]

Boarding makes perfect sense to those who enjoy the dynamic, and makes no sense to those that do not. This argument while interesting, is pointless as it's my belief that both sides can argue endlessly about the intricacies but it simply amounts to. 'I like boarding/being boarded' and 'I do not like being boarded/boarding'.

The arguments used to make these points are, on both sides, full of holes so I'm out of this one. Enjoy.

[undrtakr87]

I'll put here what I wrote in the Avatar Combat Section:

Personally I think that there should be a 45 second invuln when you enter boarding combat to offset the fact that they can just sit there or even that they might be in an older computer and have to sit there. Also there should be a penalty to the captains' movement (about 10%) so the captian can't just run around avoiding combat. One of the devs have already said that they think it's fine that you can get attacked while in boarding combat and that they like that. However, they said they don't like that it's eing used in this way.

Yes, there should be a small invuln timer at the beginning of boarding combat for people on slower computer to properly load and make it fair. 45 seconds is just way too long. Being attackable while in boarding combat by outside enemy ships is good, but only when actual boarding combat is taking place, and not while the invuln timer is ticking and the boarder can do nothing about it. It needs to be made so that both ships are invuln to outside attacks during the 45 second timer (it's only fair), or the timer is lowered to something like 20 seconds as has been stated throughout this thread.

Also, boarding combat can take an awful long time if both players have in excess of 4 waves. Plenty of time to be sunk by enemy ships while in combat should there be any around.

[Fallen751]

I think the timer is fine, and boarding combat is fine. I also think that crew damage is at the right level. It takes skill to get close enough to board - if you don't like your crew taking so much damage use bulwarks in your general outfitting slots. I think that this is especially moot considering that when we are higher levels if your enemy gets close enough to actually use AP (anti-personal) effectively their armor will be shot to **** by heavy rounds - you probably will have sunk them sunk before they can get close. Also if they are trying to board you load AP too - if your not a boarding ship you'll probably do more damage to their crew via more cannons. Their are also skills like cut lines that make it hard for other to board you, I see it as a fine game mechanic. I think that if you complain that AP is too effective you just need to explore options that keep you from getting boarded. It seems like a ridiculous game mechanic, but I think the end game is important to keep in mind. I like boarding just the way it is - my 2 cents.

[Stormbad]

I agree that crew needs some resistance proportional to the remaining crew. As the crew number drops, it is harder to injure/kill the remaining crew. It makes sense.

On the flip side, I think your offensive boarding percentage should be adjusted depending on the remaining crew numbers so it should go down as crew goes down. It should NOT adjust boarding defense, leave those to the poodles.

-------QFE

[PirateChiken]

Soooo, what you're say'n is that you got pwned in boarding combat, because someone sank your ship whiel you were IN boarding combat.

Got it, ok, the 45 seconds may be too high, but, if they'd FIX the damned Memory Leak, and fix the issue where if you've learned A LOT of recipes it slows down your load times, then it wouldn't have to be 45 seconds.
I think 30 seconds would be great if the previous bugs were fixed. Other than that, I think the mechanic of boarding combat is fine.

This tactic has been used both by me (being the guy shooting the enemy's ship) and being beaten in Combat on the ship. I like the way it is, but I'd prefer it to be a workable mechanic where the game would fire a signal to the server and the other client that says "Hey, I've loaded all the way into the AvCom, start the battle". That way you could take out the timer or lower it significantly. That would solve the entire problem of having a timer.
Unfortunately the code isn't writen that way currently. (If I were your QA person at FLS I'd say it was a huge bug, and ask for the code to be re-written. Obviously that's not possible this late in development, which is also why SO many of us Beta Testers said not to release the game yet.)

As a QA Tester I'd say yes, lower the timer, BUT, understand there will be more losses due to system specs. You don't fix the system around the game, you fix the game around the majority of people's systems. (Funny how it's harder to write code than to simply change the parts in your machine huh?)

Anyway, I feel like I'm ranting, and I'm done.
I hope that FLS sees the problem for how/what it is and makes the proper adjustments.

[Romeo13]

A number of points.

1. It was NOT standard practice to shoot into Boarded ships... and in fact there were Court Martials about it... One very famous incident during Trafalger was when a Ship was raked while boarded, but the freindly crew had already lost and gone below decks, and so was reasonably safe. And they fired GRAPE. not a heavy round because of point 2 below.

2. If you are Tied up to a ship with boarding cables, and that ship SINKS you have a very good possiblility of your ship going under as well... combination of lines pulling your ship over, and the venturi affect.

3. A ship of the Line would NOT use its entire crew for boarding... the gunners would still be below decks firing.. and so could return fire even while boarded if a target presented itself... smaller ships could not do this... not enough crew... but SOLs??? definatly. In game this is not modeled... perhaps the AI could fire guns from your ship while you are boarded?

4. A round from a 32 LB gun (endgame) will go completly through anything less than a Huge ship, and potentialy damage the ship which is grappeld. Add in richochets, and the splinters caused by the round hitting Oak... and you have the major reason for point 1.

5. The idea that Pirates have a Majic spell which can degrade or deplete the crew, is pretty ludicrous... Shot? sure... Fire? OK... but these Majic debuffs are silly. Why would the 450 man crew, of a SOL suddenly cower in fear from a Pirate in a 20 gunner? If anything it would raise moral as they laughed at them....

[Jean LaFoot]

Or we could go the realistic route. and its perfectly fine
because in a real boarding procedure you can still get fired upon. How about more damage is done, since there are less people aboard your ship to clear water, to mend leaks and to put out fires. you should never board in real combat unless one set is weak. The tactic is to take out sails of one ship and lure the other ship far away so that the first cant get to you in time then board it. One flaw i find in this game is the cheesy way you can repair damage to your ship in mid fight. Or the fact that if I grapeshot you for 5 min and you lose all your men, if you wait about 1-2 min you have all your men back. So stop complaining about how your getting hosed when they are already letting you get all of that for free.

[Caldes]

Or the fact that if I grapeshot you for 5 min and you lose all your men, if you wait about 1-2 min you have all your men back. .

The crew health bar does not reflect how many of your crew are alive/dead, rather how many or able to full fill their duties to the fullest, with no ill effects. The rest of the crew may be wounded, dead, dazed, frightened, or half arsing their job because they don't want to risk losing their necks.

The full restoration of the crew is done for the same reason your ship is fully restored: this game would become nigh unplayable if you had to wait for your ship to be repaired in port, or over a more extensive period of time. Yes this is a simulation, but not an extreme simulation.

[Capn Mal]

A number of points.

1. It was NOT standard practice to shoot into Boarded ships... and in fact there were Court Martials about it... One very famous incident during Trafalger was when a Ship was raked while boarded, but the freindly crew had already lost and gone below decks, and so was reasonably safe. And they fired GRAPE. not a heavy round because of point 2 below.

Actually, apparently it was common. Seize the Fire: Heroism, Duty, and the Battle of Trafalgar (http://www.amazon.com/Seize-Fire-Heroism-Battle-Trafalgar/dp/0060753617) mentions ships coming alongside an enemy grappled from the other side and firing into it double shotted with half powder to reduce blow through. It also talks about ships grappled together firing their belowdeck guns into each other continuously, without running them out because there was no room for the muzzles between hulls (and the gun crews throwing buckets of water after firing because a fire in the enemy ship would bring down both ships).

2. If you are Tied up to a ship with boarding cables, and that ship SINKS you have a very good possibility of your ship going under as well... combination of lines pulling your ship over, and the venturi affect.

The venturi effect can draw a ship closer to another moving ship, but a sinking ship sucking down other ships is a myth (busted by Mythbusters incidentally). Boarding cables and entwined rigging definitely pose a threat if one ship sinks. Ships rarely sank in battle though - battles would end when the crew of one ship was no longer capable of fighting. Damage done might sink the ships slowly after the battle though, or prevent them from maneuvering off dangers (source again: Seize the Fire)

[SkyHog]

No, because boarding and being able to get a kill under circumstances where you can't last 45 seconds otherwise is cheap as hell, and borderline exploitative. Cheap boarding itself needs a mega nerf, but short of that, I am glad to see a mechanic in place to limit the effectiveness of this cheap tactic somewhat.

I agree. However I see the other side as well, where players are using the Cheap Boarding, then using the 45 seconds for there partners to kill the ship. I ran into this the other day, I jumped into a battle yesterday where 5 had jumped 1 in a civilian ship. By the time I got in they had the civilian ship. I got there tackler to chase me out 1500 yards and turned to take him on. He tried a bump and grape but must of missed his grapple. I terrorized and counter boarded him. I then had to sit there and wait while he stood at his starting point for 45 seconds making lol and rude gesture emotes. He then proceeded to do the run around the ship in hopes of dragging out the battle. I countered by killing off his crew then killing him. Of course this took a long time and two of his buddies in the Postilions had caught up. Good thing they were a little slow in the brain department. they were sitting for a double broadside of Starshot and I gave them the slip. I hope that tackler was on TS and cried when I ate him with 4 big brothers close by.

I am seeing it used as a two + man easy ship kill by a lot of noobs Bump and board then stay safe for 45 seconds while your partner kills the ship.

[MissionaryMarr]

To the OP - your numbers don't make sense. You assume that the second ship starts on your stern when you start to board. Why do you board when someone is raking your stern? The answer is that you don't. You pick your moment to board, and the other ship has to get that raking position, and that takes time.

Yes, you still are taking damage while being boarded, but I feel that you exaggerated the situation quite a bit.

-Jeff
I have a question I have seen this argument in a couple of threads and every time someone comes in and makes the point that you shouldn't board if the situation isn't good for you which right. Yet the problem is in most cases we aren't talking about a player who boards an enemy complaining about the rest of the enemies being able to still destroy him. Instead the tactic is when the enemies outnumber you one initiates boarding and then delays to let his friends continue to do damage to you outside. Personally I do find that a cheap tactic. Now whether things need to be changed is not something I am can judge haven't played enough. I just wish people would realize when these complaints come they aren't the ones initiating the boarding action.

[bpdlr]

I have a question I have seen this argument in a couple of threads and every time someone comes in and makes the point that you shouldn't board if the situation isn't good for you which right. Yet the problem is in most cases we aren't talking about a player who boards an enemy complaining about the rest of the enemies being able to still destroy him. Instead the tactic is when the enemies outnumber you one initiates boarding and then delays to let his friends continue to do damage to you outside. Personally I do find that a cheap tactic. Now whether things need to be changed is not something I am can judge haven't played enough. I just wish people would realize when these complaints come they aren't the ones initiating the boarding action.

It's a cheap tactic? I beg to differ. Letting the boarder kill you on his own is the cheapest way; by sinking your ship, they are spending valuable ammo on you.

Face it, in this situation, you're dead. End of story. What tactics they use to kill you are irrelevant.

[Archavious]

Its not that hard. Don't board in a 1v2,3,4,5,6 situation. It is designed to be risky.



Read the rest of the post beyond the first line? Without boarding, scout ships/speed tackles basically become pointless and you have only 6v6 warship battles. Who would take the time to use crew shot if it took as long to kill a ship's crew as it does to destroy the entire ship? That argument seems invalid to me. Also, pirates would be worse off than they already are.


If your tacklers are getting close enough to board you need new tacklers.

[Jean LaFoot]

I personally wouldn't mind if my ship had to be repaired or a new crew hired and they had to gain experience themselves to become a good solid crew. You say it would make the game unplayable. I see it as a pirate pc game turning into an mmorpg. Where instead this game seems to just be an mmorpg that happens to be in a pirate setting. If it were more realistic, then quests wouldn't even matter, a sloop/schooner could outmaneuver a frigate and win, if the captain was better, instead thats not possible, because if i grape you over and over again, i wait to long between shots or before i board then your crew is fully alive again.