Did I miss something? Is there a reward for PVP?

[NameTry2468]

So, this just hit me recently after responding to a couple of other threads. I hadn't really thought about it til now, but I've reached lvl 21 in the Pre-Boarding, and I don't think I bothered to go PVP'ing once. Sure, the red circles weren't there, but even in the Betas, when the circles were there, I actually tended to avoid them. I find this strange because I was actually really looking forward to the PVP in this game, so why wasn't I bothering?

Was it the risk? Not really...I know PVP is pretty dangerous. I mean, in PVP, it's always a guarantee that at least one of you is going to lose the ship. This can cost many thousands of doubloons at a time. Not to mention that most of the time, when you attack someone, he's bound to have 4 other friends hiding somewhere ready to go family-style on you. There are big risks in PVP. This is a fact, but it's also one I'm willing to accept. Those risks are necessary, first of all, to keep the economy going at a brisk pace, and second, to actually make PVP the exciting engagement that it is.

But every time I had a hankering for either turning my flag on, or sailing to a red circle, or attacking a lone Flagged enemy who may or may not have a posse hidden somewhere, I had to ask myself a question. And after coming to the conclusion that no, I did not feel lucky, punk, I asked myself another question: Why? Why bother?

Why bother PVP'ing, really? Sure, sometimes the draw of some n00b pirate with a perma-flagged Limburg Flute is too much to resist, but most of the time during PVP, nobody's carrying cargo! Unless you're ambushing a stupid merchant, there's never anything to gain, and ambushing a helpless merchant who never stood a chance of fighting back isn't even all that fun! And as for the red circles, well...sure, that kind of PVP is great but unless you are actively working to flip a port for the glory of your nation, there is little point in risking a ship of any cost. Indeed, the time you waste looking for the fun of a decent fight is often completely in vain, since there is no reason for anyone else to come out and play. The other hitch here is that in order for the red circles to even appear, a rather massive amount of PVE grinding (hunting ships near the port) must first be completed.

Red-circle PVP is fun, but to a player who was looking to make PVP the primary goal of the game, it's sinfully unrewarding. Think about it...You grind PVE for hours just to make the zone come up, you put your ship on the line, over and over again, maybe you lose a few durability points in the fights and the final battle, but even if you are 100% successful, even if you actually flip the port to your side, what's in it for the PVP'er? You worked your butt off to get this port, and when you're done, a bunch of pansy-boy freetraders who didn't want to get their hands dirty get to come in and capitalize on your effort. If you're lucky, all you get in return is slightly lower prices on some goods that will hopefully be reflected and trickled-up to the final price of the ship you had to buy because you sunk most of your current one fighting for the darn port in the first place!

Why PVP? You never make a dime, but you always stand to lose your coffers! What does a loss in PVP really mean? It means more hours of having to go back and PVE-grind all the money and assets you lost during the most fun, yet most pointless part of the game. If I want to have to work at a boring grind for days just to pay for the few hours I spend having a little pointless, unprofitable fun, that's what I have life for!

Basically, this leaves players who came to this game for the PVP feeling a little duped. I remember the Devs saying that this game would allow players to make PVP a viable playstyle! Having to grind just to compensate for PVP losses makes me feel like PVP is some kind of sinful addiction, rather than a real part of the game! You come back to your guild's shipwright, ashamed that you blew yet another MC Cutter on nothing more than a cheap adrenaline high, and you give him the money you managed to scrounge up elsewhere just to get another chance at your "fix". That's pretty much the only reason to PVP, right? You kinda just have to do it for the lol's because you never actually come back to port with anything to show for it!

A word about Marks of Victory:
Now if you're aching to correct me and say "Oh, but NameTry! There is a PVP reward! Marks of Victory! Lol!"
Here's a clue. MoV's stopped being a decent reward for PVP a long time ago. First of all, you only get an MOV from PVP if you board a player and cap his derelict. This only happens if a) You actually win, b) you actually win by boarding, c) you actually have time to waste on all these shenanigans while his friends are pounding you up the stern. It takes a couple of hours that a PVP'er spends sailing to a spot where he might then find a fight, finding a couple of fight, fighting a couple of fights, and winning those fights by boarding to net, oh, let's say 5 MoV's. In that time (and I am not lying to you) I can make 24 marks of victory doing a PVE grind that costs me almost nothing except a few cannonballs. And lets face it, you also gotta be pretty darn good to get 5 MoV's through in a row! If you are the average player (you win about as many times as you lose), and let's be generous and say that everytime you win, you manage to win by boarding, each Mark of Victory also cost you 1 Durability point. Let me repeat that...
If your win/loss ratio is 50-50, 1 MoV = 1 Durability.
When I can make 24 MoV's in 2 hours doing riskless, costless PVE, the Mark of Victory you get for PVP is less than negligible. Period.

The fact of the matter is that a good PVP'er (let's say someone who wins 65%) of the time should pretty much break even when it comes to cost. A skilled PVP'er in an average ship should be able to pay his way through PVP. If not, the non-monetary reward should be darn huge. Simply put, there needs to be a PVP-tailored reward attached to PVP. This reward should be earned by PVP'ers, for PVP. Period. If you want to make it available to others, that's fine, but there is no excuse for having a PVP-oriented reward be attained faster and easier through riskless and already profitable PVE.

I'm not asking to take away anything from PVE'rs. I'm not asking for anyone to get roped into non-consensual PVP, or for any of the non-PVP population to be marginalized in any way. I'm talking about a PVP reward for the people who enjoy PVP. If Marks of Victory are going to continue working they way they are, then think of a new PVP reward.

[NameTry2468]

A suggestion of my own:
What I've said above are the facts, and I'm sticking to them. What I'm writing below is just me spitballin' an idea...It's flexible.

The best and least intrusive way I can think of to do this is allow doubloons to be part of the surrender deal exchange. Cargo should remain a blind percentage, or whatever is now. However, right now the Cargo surrender system doesn't do anything for real PVP'ers because real PVP'ers don't carry cargo. The loser of a PVP engagement (or someone who just doesn't want to fight) should be allowed to offer doubloons in exchange for the chance to retreat.

Why does this help?
a) All players carry doubloons on them, but they are not sunk or lost. Even if the loser decides not to buy his way out of the battle, he doesn't stand to lose anything than what he would have originally lost (1 Durability and his cargo if he's carrying anything).
b) It legitimizes PVP (successful PVP) as a way to actually make more than you lose. At the same time, it doesn't hurt anyone, because all you're giving them is option that they didn't have before.
c) It kind of meshes with the economic choices of the game. "How much is that durability point worth to you? Is it worth 1/3 of your ship's cost? No? Okay, you're welcome to keep your money, Bye!"
d) It keeps some of the money that PVP'ers earned bouncing around the economy of the PVP'ers for a little while longer before finally going to Joe Freetrader.
e) It gives merchants a way to protect their cargo if they are ambushed, but since the enemy has no idea what the cargo is really worth, it also becomes a pretty interesting battle of wits.
f) It gives those ridiculously expensive ships a chance to fight again. If me and 2 of my pals actually manage to take down an SOL, and he offers even 1 tenth of the cost of that SOL, I might be persuaded to let him get away. It allows NO's in those big costly ships to play on the greed of their assailants, and get away with keeping a 2.5 million DB durability point that they would've lost for the price of a half-million DB ransom price.

Of course, this is not a complete solution to the problem. It is a partial solution that helps divert some money to PVP'ers, instead of having it ALL go to shipwrights, because currently, there is no option but to lose the durability and buy another ship from them.

[Vanskills]

Currently there is NO reason to PvP unless your a Pirate...just too much to lose..

Like im really gonna risk losing my ship and cargo for a meaningless fight...

And i love PVP...so im not a PvE carebear by no means.



Great game..but they better fix this or PvP will be pointless to even the Pirates...

[NefariousCoal]

I've PvP'd a couple times for the fun of it but as you said, the monetary risk outweighs the reward.

Now, for port contention, I'm just fine with pvp'ing and risking it much more often. That whole concept is the funnest part of this game for me. Once I started participating in contention during open beta, I found it difficult to keep concentrated on doing missions when I wanted to go back out.

[YIC]

Currently there is NO reason to PvP unless your a Pirate...just too much to lose..



Well, i got bored at level limit, so that's how we rolled on Antigua, PvP, and we're French. (p.s. we had 50% victory, 50% runners)

[Captain Halstan]

I'm one of those who run with my tag up and no cargo. Hehe.

But I don't do it solo, I think it's also annoying the way people do PvP; one engages while their group mates stay outside the circle, and yes other Nations do it beside Pirates. I'm all for fair fights too, and a challenge, but not some ganks like in other games. That was the reason I stopped playing PvP in the first place.

My society is going to do more PvP in the future, so I have the assurance of groupmates in the future to assist. But reading the first two posts, I do agree. For those who really enjoy PvP and always have their tag on ... a separate reward is good, in like raiders can get their own special armor from raiding, PvPers get special perks.

The cost of surrender is nice, but well .. I feel bad for broke players. So unless there is a base value (such as always 10%) and not allowing players to ask for ridiculous amounts of dubloons, it could work.

[NameTry2468]

The cost of surrender is nice, but well .. I feel bad for broke players. So unless there is a base value (such as always 10%) and not allowing players to ask for ridiculous amounts of dubloons, it could work.

Haha, it's not supposed to be really much of a regulated "system" as just one option.

"You got money? All right, well I have bills to pay, I'll let you go. You don't got money? Oh, So you spent the last 10 minutes trying to sink my ship so I'd pay you my money, but when I win, you don't have no money? All right, kiss your ship goodbye, hot-shot."

[Spartanicus1]

Starting tomorrow people will find out there are serious reasons for PVP.

The other reason is smple it is fun.

[Captain Halstan]

Wow then I'll be sunk alot. I go broke trying to figure out the economy .. yeah I suck at it.

So anyone who attacks me gets no cargo and no money. Wow, don't waste your time then!

[Bom Jones]

This man...has a good point...Though personally, If they don't, I will still PvP all day anyway...at some point that will get old though. I would also like to see a K:D counter (like on aircraft, you know little ships painted on my hull).

[SWBgHz]

In short - there is no reward for PvP. Surely the fun of it is something but that is far from outweighing to cost (in time and resources) of a loss or the unfun of the inevitable ganks that come up. I think it is a big failure of the game right now and one FLS had better have an answer for or there will be allot of people at 50 come late Feb wondering why they should be signing up for another month at $15.

Don't get me wrong - PvP doesn't have to have a reward associated with it so long as it has little cost to it - but having a high cost and little to no reward is a recipe for what PotBS PvP to date has been and that is largely avoided.

[Net-Zao]

Very good points, Nametry. I agree that risking your **** should be worth more than a slight chance of some mediocre booty. I have a few ideas that could work in additon to the "ransom" idea.

- Automatic nation tokens. Each nation has its own token. If you're french and you take down an enemy, you are automatically rewarded a token, regardless of how you defeated him. These tokens can then be redeemable in town for special items which cannot be craftedor looted. Story/RP wise, these tokens are symbols of your personal fight for your nation. As for the items I'm not sure. Maybe rare upgrades, swords, ect.

- Ship salvaging. Lets say you sink a ship. You can then activate a skill (or can be automatic) which salvages the destroyed vessel for parts, which then appear in your hold as raw materials (such as wood gathered from the remains), or cannons that survived. This way you can take something out of the fight, maybe even a rare upgrade that survived the blasts.

Those a just a few ideas I had.

[NameTry2468]

Starting tomorrow people will find out there are serious reasons for PVP.
I'm not denying that there are serious reasons to PVP.

However, if a nation has a vested interest in securing a territory, or defending themselves from attackers, they don't recruit a completely volunteer army, not pay them a dime, expect them to keep their civilian jobs on top of it so they can buy their own guns and equipment, and tell them "Hey! If you go fight for the glory of your nation, you might get cheaper prices on your bullets the next time!".

[NameTry2468]

Very good points, Nametry. I agree that risking your **** should be worth more than a slight chance of some mediocre booty. I have a few ideas that could work in additon to the "ransom" idea.

- Automatic nation tokens. Each nation has its own token. If you're french and you take down an enemy, you are automatically rewarded a token, regardless of how you defeated him. These tokens can then be redeemable in town for special items which cannot be craftedor looted. Story/RP wise, these tokens are symbols of your personal fight for your nation. As for the items I'm not sure. Maybe rare upgrades, swords, ect.

- Ship salvaging. Lets say you sink a ship. You can then activate a skill (or can be automatic) which salvages the destroyed vessel for parts, which then appear in your hold as raw materials (such as wood gathered from the remains), or cannons that survived. This way you can take something out of the fight, maybe even a rare upgrade that survived the blasts.

Those a just a few ideas I had.

Not bad. Not bad at all.

[Captain Halstan]

Well Pirates don't need ship salvaging .. we can do that already. But I like the token idea. Back in the day ship captains would be rewarded by their rulers when they sunk enemy ships in their name .. so it could work here.

[layton999]

Agree with Captain. Stopped PVP because got tired of being ganked.

One person in a fast ship is flagged but is grouped with 4 or 5 non-flagged ships the fast flagged ship chases and attacks a single player. You all know what happens to the single player.

I don't mind being jumped by flagged players because I was stupid and didn't check the area before engaging or not getting the weathergauge etc but this unflagged thing is an exploit they are not getting grief from players because they are unflagged so just sit there totally unharmed waiting for some poor bugger to come along.

That is the gank I hate the most. It could be solved if the Dev's admitted it was a problem and some of the players actually use this and then protest in forums that it is our fault we get ganked. Then the same players are calling PVE players carebears ermmm yeah ok.

Question. If I am not flagged and I attack the PVP player in this situation can the unflagged friends jump in? Because I attacked a PVP player and in a PVP situation? If so then makes it even worse.

Remember PVP flagging is for those that want to fight everyone. So grouping with 5 unflagged ships is like saying yes I want to PVP but only if I have 6 to 1 odds on winning. And you call PVE players carebears!

One suggestion that came on the Roberts server was to convoy groups that had nonflagged players in them or flagged players that didn't have some sort of grouping skill, item or even equipment. So it says something like: Leader's Name Group (5) unless you have convoy skill/signal flags or something of that nature. And it always says group if you have an unflagged player with you.

The other suggestion was not letting unflagged players join an already started PVP battle.

Have seen time and again people saying if you go PVP expect to be ganked. Eek not good.

I want awards for sinking players as have no yet been able to board against 3 or 4 players but have sunk that light ship that chased me on a few occations!


Layton
(waiting for the flames)

[SWBgHz]

God help me if they add another thing in my inventory I have to collect and go somewhere to turn in. Please, enough with the complexity just to be complex.

K I S S

Keep It Simple Stupid

If John Q. loses outfittings in battle for getting sunk I should get them, or something similar. I know they won't do it because they are hard up for reasons to make the timesink of the economy justified since everyone makes the same exact quality things. Nevertheless, getting as reward for victory something equal to what you risk in loss is essential - that or removing the loss so you are playing for the fun of it.

[layton999]

Like that idea. You get his upgrades that he has lost. They have to go somewhere and if you have taken him then you have earned them.

Layton

[Spartanicus1]

I'm not denying that there are serious reasons to PVP.

However, if a nation has a vested interest in securing a territory, or defending themselves from attackers, they don't recruit a completely volunteer army, not pay them a dime, expect them to keep their civilian jobs on top of it so they can buy their own guns and equipment, and tell them "Hey! If you go fight for the glory of your nation, you might get cheaper prices on your bullets the next time!".



Yeah and this isn't the real world so none of that matters you are basically a nation of one allied to all the other players of your Nationality. You don't have to raise a finger you don't have to fight you can avoid it.

You are not pressed ganged into fighting.

I find it rather silly that PvP is being complained about at this time not only that but only PVP in the last two weeks were people looking for it.

The other silly thing I read is people talking about getting "Ganked" give us a break take the flag off go kill some npc pirates or something but don't whine because you get beat in PVP just try again or give it up.

[SWBgHz]

'Course it's a good idea (python reference).

But seriously, won't happen because the game is oddly setup with PvP serving the economy instead of the other way around. FLS cannot reward PvP without the economy suffering. It is the same reason that you have these stupid commendations rewarding ships for turn in but by the time you get the commendations, even if you went hunting them, you would be well over the level of the ship they reward (save the diligence on for the sloop).

[foxspirit]

Judging by the risks out weighing the costs in PVP, I think Ill just keep my flags off...

Now, if they had some sort of loot generator for sinking a players battleship, and not some trivial items like "5 ratty boars hides and 12 bat fangs" that you got like you would if the player had been an npc instead. Instead have it be something worthwhile; useable upgrades, crafting materials, and/or money.

However this loot would come from the game, and it wouldnt reflect what was really in the the players hold at the time. So even if you carry nothing, and you get sunk, the aggressor still gets stuff from your "fake hold".

Make sense?

[Spartanicus1]

What is all this cash starved stuff? You get a ship that you can grind the money out for doing missions or killing NPC"s on the OS in just a few hours they have durability so you don't lose it in just some freak attack or lost. Sure there are some upgrades lost if you lose but I build those and sell them mostly for 500 to 2500 gold, I can make 500 gold killing one 3 ship drakesmen which takes me about 5 mins or so.

I will start a day off playing at 21 have 15K gold or so and the next day I start up I will have 35 or 40K. That is mostly taking down other nations trade convoys. Its not unusal to get 1000 to 2000 gold per convoy if you sell the items on the market later. Get a good book and you can make 1000 to 50,000 maybe more on the very rare books.

[NameTry2468]

Yeah and this isn't the real world so none of that matters you are basically a nation of one allied to all the other players of your Nationality. You don't have to raise a finger you don't have to fight you can avoid it.

You are not pressed ganged into fighting.


Riiiight....the idea of a game is to give rewards for doing the fun things in the game. As oppose to not doing them.
"You don't have to fight, you can avoid it." ?!? LOL! That's not like...a bonus option, dude, that's just bad game design.

If there is a really fun part of the game, and your only two options are...
- Grind for hours before-hand to experience it
- Just avoid it

That's a flaw in game design!

I'd loooove to see more video games designed according to that philosophy!




Like Everquest!

[NameTry2468]

What is all this cash starved stuff? You get a ship that you can grind the money out for doing missions or killing NPC"s on the OS in just a few hours they have durability so you don't lose it in just some freak attack or lost. Sure there are some upgrades lost if you lose but I build those and sell them mostly for 500 to 2500 gold, I can make 500 gold killing one 3 ship drakesmen which takes me about 5 mins or so.

I will start a day off playing at 21 have 15K gold or so and the next day I start up I will have 35 or 40K. That is mostly taking down other nations trade convoys. Its not unusal to get 1000 to 2000 gold per convoy if you sell the items on the market later. Get a good book and you can make 1000 to 50,000 maybe more on the very rare books.

Dude.

What part of "PVP'ers don't like to PVE-grind just to play the part of the game they actually find fun." don't you understand? Grinding is the worst part of an MMO, and if it's going to be a pre-requisite to the fun part, the fun part better be rewarding!

"Oh, it's just a couple of hours grinding here, couple 'hours grinding there, and then you're good to go!"
Oh, sorry, what? I was busy playing a game that's fun all the time.

[Spartanicus1]

Riiiight....

I know


the idea of a game is to give rewards for doing the fun things in the game. As oppose to not doing them.
"You don't have to fight, you can avoid it." ?!? LOL! That's not like...a bonus option, dude, that's just bad game design.

If there is a really fun part of the game, and your only two options are...
- Grind for hours before-hand to experience it
- Just avoid it

That's a flaw in game design!

I'd loooove to see more video games designed according to that philosophy!

Like Everquest!

No its not bad game design. Have you taken any ports? What do you want? A new ship for killing someone? Now that would work in this economy huh?

Have you killed anyone in PVP?

Did you know you can get Marks of Victory for killing in PVP and use those to pay for a career specific ship that is a very nice ship.

[SWBgHz]

What is all this cash starved stuff? You get a ship that you can grind the money out for doing missions or killing NPC"s on the OS in just a few hours they have durability so you don't lose it in just some freak attack or lost. Sure there are some upgrades lost if you lose but I build those and sell them mostly for 500 to 2500 gold, I can make 500 gold killing one 3 ship drakesmen which takes me about 5 mins or so.

A) Cost doesn't have to be in coin it can be in time, having to grind the stupid AI PvE for an hour or so to recoup a PvP loss is worse than losing the coin directly to me.

B) You cannot look at this from the vantage of the pre boarding only. 1 to 20 money is no problem but get to 30, 35, 45 and buy huge outfittings and huge ships and fire broadsides of 40+ cannons and watch the costs climb. And keep in mind with few exceptions the money making early missions vanish as you level and towards end game - you cannot do most missions more than once and even if you could my god there are only 10 or 12 anyways if I am 50 and still expected to do those dumb missions I would quit on that basis. Point being, most missions are not repeatable so that dries up at end game and by the time you get to 45/50 (trust me I have been there several times) the last thing you want to do for fun is the stupid AI.

[Spartanicus1]

Dude.

What part of "PVP'ers don't like to PVE-grind just to play the part of the game they actually find fun." don't you understand? Grinding is the worst part of an MMO, and if it's going to be a pre-requisite to the fun part, the fun part better be rewarding!

"Oh, it's just a couple of hours grinding here, couple 'hours grinding there, and then you're good to go!"
Oh, sorry, what? I was busy playing a game that's fun all the time.

No I don't understand because you don't understand PVP in this game I am thinking you haven't even experienced it or know what it is about. Join a decent society and get into the other "fun" things in the game if you think PVP is the only fun than well you must be a hardcore PVP'er who everything else like meeting new people and working together is alien.

I used the word grind for lack of any other word. The point was that you refused to acknowlege was that in a couple of hours you can buy a ship. Losing in PVP is not expensive for the most part.

[SWBgHz]

Did you know you can get Marks of Victory for killing in PVP and use those to pay for a career specific ship that is a very nice ship.

Of all the kills I had in open beta I think I saw one Mark of Victory show up, and it had to be diced between the group. ROFL, a mark of victory as a reward for risking tens of thousands of doubloons - rofl. I can go get two marks of victory in 3 minutes doing a newbie port patrol mission.

I used the word grind for lack of any other word. The point was that you refused to acknowlege was that in a couple of hours you can buy a ship. Losing in PVP is not expensive for the most part.

I can tell you that once you go form 0 to 50 a couple times, I have done 4 or 5 times now since back in closed beta, the last thing you want to do is spend 1 or 2 hours on the stupid and unchallenging AI to grind the cost of PvP stuff - that is the point of the cost being too high. Add in that as a pirate, even now as a national since the kill payout nerf, you don't get as much money for kills so OS grinding for a ton of cash is just not the case except at low levels.

[NameTry2468]

Have you killed anyone in PVP?

Did you know you can get Marks of Victory for killing in PVP and use those to pay for a career specific ship that is a very nice ship.
....
I wrote an entire section on Marks of Victory and why they're a horrible reward for PVP. Maybe when you've gone back to the second half of my first post and answered what I said about that I'll take this seriously.

[Spartanicus1]

A) Cost doesn't have to be in coin it can be in time, having to grind the stupid AI PvE for an hour or so to recoup a PvP loss is worse than losing the coin directly to me.

That is your opinion and the same one you have been complaining about sense closed beta. If its that stupid why are you still here?

B) You cannot look at this from the vantage of the pre boarding only. 1 to 20 money is no problem but get to 30, 35, 45 and buy huge outfittings and huge ships and fire broadsides of 40+ cannons and watch the costs climb. And keep in mind with few exceptions the money making early missions vanish as you level and towards end game - you cannot do most missions more than once and even if you could my god there are only 10 or 12 anyways if I am 50 and still expected to do those dumb missions I would quit on that basis. Point being, most missions are not repeatable so that dries up at end game and by the time you get to 45/50 (trust me I have been there several times) the last thing you want to do for fun is the stupid AI.

Of course it cost more and the money is more. I am not just using pre-boarding but beta.

I never understood you ever this is stupid that is dumb that sucks why play dude.

[Spartanicus1]

....
I wrote an entire section on Marks of Victory and why they're a horrible reward for PVP. Maybe when you've gone back to the second half of my first post and answered what I said about that I'll take this seriously.

Dude you are just wanting to complain have at it. Perhaps they should put Neon Flashing lights on your ship if you sink someone and 10,000 gold and chicks and rum and telegram thanking you for playing a game.

I find the Marks of Victory to be very good rewards and you can get something for it so the idea that there is no reward is just silly.

[NameTry2468]

Dude you are just wanting to complain have at it. Perhaps they should put Neon Flashing lights on your ship if you sink someone and 10,000 gold and chicks and rum and telegram thanking you for playing a game.

I find the Marks of Victory to be very good rewards and you can get something for it so the idea that there is no reward is just silly.

Read. Or stop trolling my thread.

[SWBgHz]

I find the Marks of Victory to be very good rewards and you can get something for it so the idea that there is no reward is just silly.

Sorry to call you out but you obviously do not know the game based on what you are saying. Even if we take you at your reward that you think the mark of victory is enough reward how can you equate getting one mark of victory from a PvP win verse a player to getting 2 marks of victory for doing a 3 minute patrol newbie town and kill two level 6/7 ships? clearly that shows how out of whack the reward is when a lowbie level mission rewards more marks of victory that the PvP encounter (and as I said, by design or bug marks of victory more often than not don't show in PvP anyways).

[Spartanicus1]

Read. Or stop trolling my thread.

I am not trolling the question was "is there reward for PVP?"

The answer was "Yes there is"

the reponse is "but that ain't good enough"

Take a Mediator Cutter up against a Naval Cutter and then wonder if it is good enough.

[NameTry2468]

Sorry to call you out but you obviously do not know the game based on what you are saying. Even if we take you at your reward that you think the mark of victory is enough reward how can you equate getting one mark of victory from a PvP win verse a player to getting 2 marks of victory for doing a 3 minute patrol newbie town and kill two level 6/7 ships? clearly that shows how out of whack the reward is when a lowbie level mission rewards more marks of victory that the PvP encounter (and as I said, by design or bug marks of victory more often than not don't show in PvP anyways).

Just let it go, man. This guy is just looking for attention, and he's not actually reading the things we're taking the time to write. Fighting with this guy here is about as productive as the in-game PVP =P

[Spartanicus1]

Sorry to call you out but you obviously do not know the game based on what you are saying. Even if we take you at your reward that you think the mark of victory is enough reward how can you equate getting one mark of victory from a PvP win verse a player to getting 2 marks of victory for doing a 3 minute patrol newbie town and kill two level 6/7 ships? clearly that shows how out of whack the reward is when a lowbie level mission rewards more marks of victory that the PvP encounter (and as I said, by design or bug marks of victory more often than not don't show in PvP anyways).


Sorry you are unable to call anyone out because not everyone PvP's. Sure you can load up on Rum and go all the way around and get those "bugged" marks or you can do a few that way and go PVP and have some, god forbid, fun and get a few more. You can't farm those patrol mission over and over in a day.

I never once stated that was the only way to get marks was in PVP but it is a reward and so is something called playing a game for fun.

[Spartanicus1]

Just let it go, man. This guy is just looking for attention, and he's not actually reading the things we're taking the time to write. Fighting with this guy here is about as productive as the in-game PVP =P


No I won't no attention I am just answering the question sorry I didn't act like a lemming and go over the edge with everyone.

What is worse is when people who don't even have experience about what they are complaining about.

[Captain Halstan]

The other silly thing I read is people talking about getting "Ganked" give us a break take the flag off go kill some npc pirates or something but don't whine because you get beat in PVP just try again or give it up.

So you think it's reasonable for a group of 6 players, only 1 PvP flagged, no way to see if they are grouped mind you (being the other person). You get attacked .. one guy .. awesome. Then 5 seconds later that attacker's other 5 NON PvP groupmates enter the area and blast your *** to grass.

Yes I will complain about that forever. Unless FLS puts in a way to show a PvPer or Non PvPer is grouped, and/or set it up that non PvPers cannot enter a PvP area, there is gonna be alot of complaining. Call me a carebear I don't care. I had one when I was a kid ... Loves a Lot I think it was (the one with the rainbow) Oh! and I had one of those cousins too, the racoon.

I really do want to play and enjoy the PvP here. Yeah I know it has risks .. so does waking up in the morning and going to work. And I do like the idea of gaining something of the mods that were on the ship you defeated ... well hope you can grab them and yeakem off before it hits sea bottom hah. :misha:

[layton999]

Perhaps they should put Neon Flashing lights on your ship if you sink someone and 10,000 gold and chicks and rum and telegram thanking you for playing a game..

Like the idea of chicks and rum :p

Seriously are you saying that one mark (which you don't always get and you don't get for sinking a ship) is enough reward after all the hassle of finding and attacking an equal or slightly above you PVP player and there are some really good players out there who play Fairly.


Layton

[NameTry2468]

Sorry you are unable to call anyone out because not everyone PvP's. Sure you can load up on Rum and go all the way around and get those "bugged" marks or you can do a few that way and go PVP and have some, god forbid, fun and get a few more. You can't farm those patrol mission over and over in a day.

I never once stated that was the only way to get marks was in PVP but it is a reward and so is something called playing a game for fun.

Look. We're not denying that Marks of Victory are good. But here's the hitch...
I spent 10 hours (2 hours in the evening over 5 days. You can't be more casual) doing a tour of the Gulf taking 12 Patrol missions (2 lvl 7 PVE ships. You can't get any easier.) and got 24 Marks of Victory each night. The content was never fun. It was repetitive and cookie-cutter. The missions were never challenging. I usually had to watch some Daily Show alt-tabbed while doing it. I earned enough MoV's to buy me the refit Privateer ship, completely outfitted with the 3 super-cool MoV-reward General Outfittings.

Mindless. Not fun. PVE grind. No risk. Zero challenge. 10 casual hours. 120 Marks of Victory.

But you're telling me that I'm supposed to be sooooo excited about getting ONE of these Marks that I'm going to go running around the Open Sea for 2 hours looking for anyone who decided to PVP flag, face off against another player who's likely setting me up for a group gank, who has a 50/50 chance of beating me and making me lose a Durability point worth thousands or tens of thousands of doubloons, and perhaps lose the ship that I spent hours PVE-grinding for? And furthermore, the only way I get this mark is if I beat him in one specific way?

Get real. Marks of Victory are not a PVP reward.


What is worse is when people who don't even have experience about what they are complaining about.
Yeah. I couldn't agree more.

[Spartanicus1]

Like the idea of chicks and rum :p

Seriously are you saying that one mark (which you don't always get and you don't get for sinking a ship) is enough reward after all the hassle of finding and attacking an equal or slightly above you PVP player and there are some really good players out there who play Fairly.


Layton


I think we could use some more and I think there will be more rewards in the future but I disagree with the idea that we need to get some huge reward for fighting. Once port contention starts up this week it will not be an issue of finding battles so much as doing them correctly.

To me defeating another human is a reward and I have lost too and it isn't that bad. Of course I came from Eve also where there was real sometimes painful lost for going into battle it made you think before going. Of course you got to pick through the wreckage in eve and get some goodies and that did make it better. Maybe it would be as simple as having a roll of the dice on the players upgrades like in eve, some things get destroyed some are left floating.

I don't buy into the line of thinking that PVP should be absolutely risk and cost free because that removes a great deal from it.

But if they want to give 2 marks per player killed fine but I think there are rewards.

[Spartanicus1]

Of course I think we need to remember that this is the eve of release and that FLS have a fine and stable game for release. They have worked hard to get the game to this state and I am sure after the release humps they will get to work on new content which R2 has been talked about for some time and Rusty and the devs have talked about some fun stuff.

For release I think it is good. In DAOC there no reward for RVR back when it released but then they added coin drops and then you got bounty points and so on. It can only get better from what I think is a very good system.

[NameTry2468]

I think we could use some more and I think there will be more rewards in the future but I disagree with the idea that we need to get some huge reward for fighting. Once port contention starts up this week it will not be an issue of finding battles so much as doing them correctly.

To me defeating another human is a reward and I have lost too and it isn't that bad. Of course I came from Eve also where there was real sometimes painful lost for going into battle it made you think before going. Of course you got to pick through the wreckage in eve and get some goodies and that did make it better. Maybe it would be as simple as having a roll of the dice on the players upgrades like in eve, some things get destroyed some are left floating.

I don't buy into the line of thinking that PVP should be absolutely risk and cost free because that removes a great deal from it.

But if they want to give 2 marks per player killed fine but I think there are rewards.

Am I against risk or cost in PVP? Absolutely not. PVP should be costly. I don't want Counterstrike with ships where I just die and pop back up with another ship ready to go, and never think twice about it. PVP should be high stakes, and you're right, it was that way in EVE. High-cost PVP keeps the economy going, and that's a good thing

However, a high cost needs to be balanced with a high-to-moderate reward. When you PVP'd in EVE, you pretty much always got some kind of reward, did you not? And the harder your enemy, the better reward you got, right? Imagine yourself back in EVE. You've spent the past couple of days working to get your prized ship. You bought it with your own hard-earned Isk, you went out and got all the cool upgrades you wanted, and now you're ready to have some risky high-flying fun. Let's say though, that the only reward you ever got from killing a player was 1 Chunk of Asteroid Ore. That's all you get. You dragged your but out to 0.0 space, put your ship on the line, fought another player, took the risk of him having friends hiding somewhere nearby, and the only thing the game gave you back was 1 Chunk of Asteroid Ore. Meanwhile, your buddy Joe Braindead was sitting pretty back in safe space, with his ship on autopilot, farming 24 Chunks of Asteroid Ore every hour watching TV in the background.

Does that really sound like a great game mechanic?

[NameTry2468]

Of course I think we need to remember that this is the eve of release and that FLS have a fine and stable game for release. They have worked hard to get the game to this state and I am sure after the release humps they will get to work on new content which R2 has been talked about for some time and Rusty and the devs have talked about some fun stuff.

For release I think it is good. In DAOC there no reward for RVR back when it released but then they added coin drops and then you got bounty points and so on. It can only get better from what I think is a very good system.

Ah, see now you're getting it. Sure, PVP isn't completely unbearable now, and some people are willing to work for hours just to get a taste of the fun, but a substantial chunk of people who would love to have fun with PVP are highly discouraged from doing it because there is nothing to be gained from such a high-risk activity.

Sure, it can get better from here, but how is FLS going to know what areas they need to improve upon if someone doesn't speak out? Rusty and Devs have talked about a lot of things, and I'm definitely looking forward to the improvements they're making to the game, but from what I've heard, better PVP rewards isn't one of those features. Yet.

My point is that before the developers of DAOC decided it might be a good idea to add in those gold drops or bounty rewards or whatever they did to make things better, some bastard like me probably posted a similar thread in their forums to let them know high-risk, low-reward PVP just doesn't work. Someone had to be the squeaky wheel, because Devs aren't mind-readers, and sometimes they miss some of these things on the first go-round.

[Scav..]

There's only one reason for the pvper in any game.. The little grin.. That's all that matters..

[layton999]

I don't think people are talking huge rewards. I think they are asking for more than what is.
The upgrades that the ship loses if he has any for example.

That is the problem with forums and type sometimes people misread what is being asked.

At the moment you get one mark of victory if you defeat another player in boarding combat. People are saying that this is not enough because of the risks envolved, groups of people hiding etc. And some want you to get the mark for sinking a ship. This is fine and I know might cause stealing would personally like to have the option of letting another player on my side join the fight. Have had others jump in and start firing at my target when I haven't asked for help in the past.

Ganking sorry to say it but people do gank and not just groups or pirate societies. Many nation societies jump single ships and let the smaller ships board and get the victories etc. Many groups hide behind the PVE status. People can not deny these facts as they happen every day.

Very very often flagged player ships hanging around enemy ports have four or five PVE friends hiding with stealth sails nearby. If you think this is not taking advantage of PVE status then am guessing this is a valid tactic for you or don't think is important because you are usually in a group. But it is affecting the amount of people flagging for PVP because out of every five engagements they are getting jumped three or four times.

I was jumped 3 times in 3 engagements by this tactic. Sunk the light ship once then was taken, ran once and then the last one I was taken. But why should I have to fight like a maniac for one Mark? Why was I in that situation around a home port in the first place? Because the team can hide behind their PVE flags and not be attacked.

We can all say don't PVP then but half the game is PVP and if the PVP isn't working for half the people because of a simple exploit that could easily be solved then it is a problem.

I am very happy with the game I like the PVE don't mind the grind as I am sure the missions will improve as it goes along but I am not happy with the PVP at the moment.


Layton

[Kermode]

I have read most but not quite all of this, I just want to say I think the MOV system needs to be adjusted but would be otherwise good.

Example.. the low level missions, 1 MOV

Mid level 2 MOVs

High Level 3 MOVs

PvP kill 5 MOV (no matter how it is killed)

That way PVP and PVE are rewarded the same, but PVP is dramatically quicker.

I like that they have not made a PotBS version of Fabled Raid Loot or something that only a certain section of the community can get, it should however be MUCH MUCH easier for PVP then PVE.

[Parra]

Does anyone reading this post recall SWG's TEF system, and what a mess that was until they finally fix it?

In a nut shell, I would thank that unless you have your PvP flag on, you may not attack another player at any time ever. If a PvP ad hoc is in progress and a flare goes up, only PvP enabled people can join.

Personally I would take it one step further, if anyone in a group has their PvP flag on then everyone in the group is flagged automagically. Otherwise do not allow mixed grouping.

That's all I have to say about that. (Forest Gump)

[Endar]

Does anyone reading this post recall SWG's TEF system, and what a mess that was until they finally fix it?

In a nut shell, I would thank that unless you have your PvP flag on, you may not attack another player at any time ever. If a PvP ad hoc is in progress and a flare goes up, only PvP enabled people can join.

Personally I would take it one step further, if anyone in a group has their PvP flag on then everyone in the group is flagged automagically. Otherwise do not allow mixed grouping.

That's all I have to say about that. (Forest Gump)

agreed but this is a post about rewards, and yeah reward system could use some work

[layton999]

Does anyone reading this post recall SWG's TEF system, and what a mess that was until they finally fix it?

In a nut shell, I would thank that unless you have your PvP flag on, you may not attack another player at any time ever. If a PvP ad hoc is in progress and a flare goes up, only PvP enabled people can join.

Personally I would take it one step further, if anyone in a group has their PvP flag on then everyone in the group is flagged automagically. Otherwise do not allow mixed grouping.

That's all I have to say about that. (Forest Gump)

Think that would be the way about it as if you are PVE you are saying I don't want to PVP so shouldn't be allowed to. But on the other side the PVP flagged is saying I want to fight anyone.


What I said earlier after thinking still wouldn't stop a PVE engaging a flagged player and PVP players jumping in. Unless they made it so PVE players couldn't join a group player fight and PVP players couldn't join a fight that had a pve player in it.


Layton

[vexy1987]

Those pansy boy merchants build the ships you sail in, end of...

[NameTry2468]

Those pansy boy merchants build the ships you sail in...
And they sell them for the same price to the players who risked and lost tens of thousands of doubloons fighting for the port that gives merchants the resources to keep operating as they do to the folks who didn't contribute jack-squat, and instead holed themselves up in instances fighting bad AI for easy money, waiting for the rest of the nation to win the map for them.

Now obviously I'm not making a value judgment on economy players in this game. How the heck are they supposed to know how fought and who didn't? The point is that the one fringe benefit one might receive from risking their ship in PVP is something that everyone, regardless of their contribution, will benefit as much as, if not more than, the players who took the risk and did the PVP'ing.

[Adeon_Hawk]

Personally, I have no interest in PvP at all (mostly because I know that I'd be awful at it :)). However I do feel that players in general need to be encouraged to PvP. The in game economy can be reduced to three stages:

1. PvE players kill NPCs and generate money (and some goods)
2. Crafters take that money and convert it into ships (and equipment for ships)
3. PvPers take those nice pretty ships and make great big holes in them :( thereby removing the money from the economy

Now in order for the economy to be stable the amount of money going into the economy needs to be roughly equivalent to the amount going out. Now in an ideal world all players would participate in all three activities thereby giving every player a net 0 contribution to the economy over time. The low-level can be viewed as seed money increasing the size of the economy to account for the extra player.

I should probably explain at this point that I view crafting as being a net 0 contribution to the economy. Yes, they are removing cash and items from the economy but those items have no intrinsic value and are used to make items that do have intrinsic value. Ok, technically they do have intrinsic value since there are NPC vendors who can buy and sell items but those are inferior and/or more expensive than those that the players make themselves so they don't count.

Of course not everybody participates in all three. I think a lot of people have little or no interest in PvP and many of the PvPers dislike spending time on the PvE and/or economy portions of the game. The problem then becomes the fact that the major sinks in the game (the PvPers) are not bringing money into the game while the people doing PvE are not taking money out.

One solution to this of course is to force PvPers to do PvE and PvEers to do PvP. The only advantage to this is that it makes everybody unhappy :D. The more general solution is to find some giving assets to the PvPers without adding anything to the economy. As a practical issue this means that assets must be moved from the PvEers to the PvPers.

The problem is that I can't really think of a practical means of doing so. The logical solution is through crafting but if PvPers aren't interested in it now I can't really think of any proactical changes to make to it that won't just result in the PvEers and crafters getting richer.

Thanks for reading I hope that made some sense :)

[Sally Sue]

Currently there is NO reason to PvP unless your a Pirate...just too much to lose..

Like im really gonna risk losing my ship and cargo for a meaningless fight...

And i love PVP...so im not a PvE carebear by no means.



Great game..but they better fix this or PvP will be pointless to even the Pirates...

actually there are rewards for pvp. They are called marks of victory ( there are also none pvp ways to get these that require a great deal more time) These nmarks can be turned in for rewards such as refits for better ships.. special green outfittings and other things. Also if you want to get into the port battles you want points for the lottery and you again gain these much faster in pvp.

[Sally Sue]

In short - there is no reward for PvP. Surely the fun of it is something but that is far from outweighing to cost (in time and resources) of a loss or the unfun of the inevitable ganks that come up. I think it is a big failure of the game right now and one FLS had better have an answer for or there will be allot of people at 50 come late Feb wondering why they should be signing up for another month at $15.

Don't get me wrong - PvP doesn't have to have a reward associated with it so long as it has little cost to it - but having a high cost and little to no reward is a recipe for what PotBS PvP to date has been and that is largely avoided.


for someone who played in closed beta and added it to their sig you actually know little about the game. There is reward for it they are called marks of victory. MOV are the only way to get the refit writs for special career ships. Additonaly, there are special green outfittings for the marks pluus other rewards. Yes you can gain marks other ways but PvP is a much faster way. If you paid attention in beta you would know this.

[vexy1987]

- Ship salvaging. Lets say you sink a ship. You can then activate a skill (or can be automatic) which salvages the destroyed vessel for parts, which then appear in your hold as raw materials (such as wood gathered from the remains), or cannons that survived. This way you can take something out of the fight, maybe even a rare upgrade that survived the blasts.

Nice idea but tjinking about it, its a bit far fetched, I don't know of many pirates that used their sucba gear to salavge wrecks :P, Once a ship is sunk its lost forever thats why modern day salvaging is still common place, theres thousands of ships filled with treasures at the bottom of the sea :D

[Sally Sue]

Look. We're not denying that Marks of Victory are good. But here's the hitch...
I spent 10 hours (2 hours in the evening over 5 days. You can't be more casual) doing a tour of the Gulf taking 12 Patrol missions (2 lvl 7 PVE ships. You can't get any easier.) and got 24 Marks of Victory each night. The content was never fun. It was repetitive and cookie-cutter. The missions were never challenging. I usually had to watch some Daily Show alt-tabbed while doing it. I earned enough MoV's to buy me the refit Privateer ship, completely outfitted with the 3 super-cool MoV-reward General Outfittings.

Mindless. Not fun. PVE grind. No risk. Zero challenge. 10 casual hours. 120 Marks of Victory.

But you're telling me that I'm supposed to be sooooo excited about getting ONE of these Marks that I'm going to go running around the Open Sea for 2 hours looking for anyone who decided to PVP flag, face off against another player who's likely setting me up for a group gank, who has a 50/50 chance of beating me and making me lose a Durability point worth thousands or tens of thousands of doubloons, and perhaps lose the ship that I spent hours PVE-grinding for? And furthermore, the only way I get this mark is if I beat him in one specific way?

Get real. Marks of Victory are not a PVP reward.


Yeah. I couldn't agree more.

First they are a reward. Second in 6 hours of pvp play in preboarding i gained almost 2 full lvls and 37 marks. So 4 less hours 13 more marks ton my xp and more fun as oppossed to "mind numbing missions"

[NameTry2468]

Of course not everybody participates in all three. I think a lot of people have little or no interest in PvP and many of the PvPers dislike spending time on the PvE and/or economy portions of the game. The problem then becomes the fact that the major sinks in the game (the PvPers) are not bringing money into the game while the people doing PvE are not taking money out.

One solution to this of course is to force PvPers to do PvE and PvEers to do PvP. The only advantage to this is that it makes everybody unhappy :D. The more general solution is to find some giving assets to the PvPers without adding anything to the economy. As a practical issue this means that assets must be moved from the PvEers to the PvPers.

Wow, some very insightful points here. I think a lot of that balance was sacrificed for the sake of consensual PVP. It's not so much that PVP'ers need to be bringing new money into the economy, but rather, than the economy's money never passes through a PVP'ers hands. Fresh new money is never earned, and old money doesn't get to bounce around. As soon as a PVP'er happens to get some money, it is almost immediately transfered to a merchant. In a system where more players are at risk of PVP, you would've seen a lot more money going through the PVP sector before winding up either sunk, or going to merchants and taken out of the economy as labor costs. You would have had PVE'ers and economy players either losing money to PVP attacks, or at least paying PVP'ers for escorts through dangerous waters. Whether you think sacrificing this balance was worth consensual PVP is up to you, but it's likely that this isn't ever going to change. PVP still needs to remain the primary way by which Material Goods exits the economy, so it must remain high risk. The question is how do we keep Money bouncing around PVP sector for longer.

[Gibbon]

Very good points, Nametry. I agree that risking your **** should be worth more than a slight chance of some mediocre booty. I have a few ideas that could work in additon to the "ransom" idea.

- Automatic nation tokens. Each nation has its own token. If you're french and you take down an enemy, you are automatically rewarded a token, regardless of how you defeated him. These tokens can then be redeemable in town for special items which cannot be craftedor looted. Story/RP wise, these tokens are symbols of your personal fight for your nation. As for the items I'm not sure. Maybe rare upgrades, swords, ect.

- Ship salvaging. Lets say you sink a ship. You can then activate a skill (or can be automatic) which salvages the destroyed vessel for parts, which then appear in your hold as raw materials (such as wood gathered from the remains), or cannons that survived. This way you can take something out of the fight, maybe even a rare upgrade that survived the blasts.

Those a just a few ideas I had.

Those are nice idea. The Nation Tokens could be split among all members of the winning fleet (and perhaps modified by level disparity) which would go some way to discouraging ganking as balanced or outnumbered groups would recieve more Tokens than outnumbering ones.

[NameTry2468]

First they are a reward. Second in 6 hours of pvp play in preboarding i gained almost 2 full lvls and 37 marks. So 4 less hours 13 more marks ton my xp and more fun as oppossed to "mind numbing missions"

You really expect me to believe you boarded and beat THIRTY SEVEN player captains in six hours, all by yourself (since you didn't have to share the marks with teammates)? You boarded and beat 1 ship captain in PVP every 10 minutes without fail or interruption?!? What server/nation where you fighting that your entire opposition decided to flag themselves and let gerbils play for them? And since you didn't balance in any losses, I'm assuming you didn't lose any durability points in the process!

You're either a really bad liar, or a godly PVP'er.

And second, you did the math wrong. In 10 hours, I got 120 marks from PVE. So even if you're telling me the truth, the statement should read more like "4 less hours, 83 less marks".

[jtw1n]

There should be some basic loot that can be merchant sold or pure coin drops based on level of the enemy you defeat in pvp. I have gathered a list of the levels and difficulty of port's patrol or blockade missions i can make a circuit without risk to my ship and make around 50 marks of victory in about an hour or 2 and then rinse and repeat every 24 hours. This level of marks would never be found from pvp battles especially group battles where marks arn't generated for each member. Not sure if their justification for dicing on a set number of marks per kill is a way to encourage smaller groups and larger battles, but it definately doesn't make the rewards for fighting worth losing expensive outfitting.

Another major issue with pvp is even if you defeat an enemy there is likely little to no loot offered. While i understand fittings not dropping why not randomly draw some loot up from the items/pieces that are used to craft the various fittings, so they can be then sold/turned into new fittings through the economy. The salvage skill of pirates helps us even out the 80% less coin from kills in pve, however since you generally have to sink an enemy in pvp you can't salvage so you get no coin/no salvage, and only the rare few gold or silver objects they might have forgot to offload. While the pvp becomes the major factor in rvr and contention late game there is no way to continue an extended pvp system when you have the need for lots of inputs with no rewards other then worthless marks. The expense of pvp is multiplied for the sides with lower populations as well since their economy isn't as efficient and they have more concentrated costs, where larger populations will divide costs of loss over their larger numbers.

[cerebus23]

Go play guild wars seriously, you can make a max level character from the get go just for pvp, if its too expensive or too risky with you 2 and 4 durability ships pfft go play eve online you get blown up thats it ship gone, and half your mods and gear which more often that not cost 2 to 3x the price of the ship or more.....

Cry much? I dont wanna grind i want l33t gear and max level and do nothing for it so i can pvp risk free all day on top if it is what i mostly get out of this thread.

Are marks a tad weak, yes they are but then again pvp is a necessity in this game not a option so sooner or later most people are going to pvp to defend their port or try to help take another.

Do you need to be involved in the economy? Yes you do its part of the game you cant just grind cash, tho i have major issues with open sea ransoming and the stupid weak money you get for boarding ships, hey were pirates lets give em a major penalty to their boarding gold....ok as a pirate i board a ship i kill the crew then the survivors....say here is 20% of our money and we being the kind hearts and generous lads instead of killing you or sinking your ship with you on board or just taking all your money we say ok and let you go.....

SO even pirates are doomed at high level to haul junk around, and sell stuff to buy ammo and mods instead of say plundering treasure fleets and pillaging towns and ships because the money is pitiful on the os and alot of the loot isnt much better. Ever board a "treasure" ship in potbs? Its not even worth the effort there is no treasure half the time there is no loot at all off treasure ships....

Quit wining make some junk sell it its not rocket science, its pretty darn basic in fact. THank god that you dont have to sit in town for hours crafting like vanguard, or mine ore in eve for hours on hours to get mats to build or buy a ship, my god if you cant deal with putting up a few buildings making something by just clicking a button for a few db then hauling somewhere to sell you should really go play wow or hello kitty online they maybe be more your speed.

[Novaseeker]

Wow, some very insightful points here. I think a lot of that balance was sacrificed for the sake of consensual PVP. It's not so much that PVP'ers need to be bringing new money into the economy, but rather, than the economy's money never passes through a PVP'ers hands. Fresh new money is never earned, and old money doesn't get to bounce around. As soon as a PVP'er happens to get some money, it is almost immediately transfered to a merchant. In a system where more players are at risk of PVP, you would've seen a lot more money going through the PVP sector before winding up either sunk, or going to merchants and taken out of the economy as labor costs. You would have had PVE'ers and economy players either losing money to PVP attacks, or at least paying PVP'ers for escorts through dangerous waters. Whether you think sacrificing this balance was worth consensual PVP is up to you, but it's likely that this isn't ever going to change. PVP still needs to remain the primary way by which Material Goods exits the economy, so it must remain high risk. The question is how do we keep Money bouncing around PVP sector for longer.

Indeed this is a structural issue in the game.

If you look at how EVE handled this, it's revealing. What CCP did was situate the resources needed to create higher end items that PvPers want in PvP regions. Now of course the PvPers don't want to mine and produce, but they want the products from that, whilst the Producers want access to resources that allow them to build higher end products for a profit. This creates an incentive to band together and cooperate within PAs -- Producers obtain resources and build while PvPers protect that resource region from interlopers -- the PA sells a portion of the production on the open market for the PA's account, a portion for the Producer's account, and a portion in-house either at drastically reduced rates or for free. It creates an atmosphere of symbiosis and cooperation between PvPers and "economy players".

Now EVE's system was far from perfect -- among other things, it bars access to resources to most would-be producers, and to be honest most PvPers still end up doing some PvEing for income purposes, but the system at least provides incentives to cooperate precisely because resources can be locked down by PvPers. In other words, it gives the PvPers some incentive to participate, in a real way, in the economic engine by locking down the resources through PvP. In PotBS, you can't really lock down resources like that. You can make it somewhat more expensive (FTs mitigate a lot of the increased expense), but that's it -- you can't really make it exclusive, and making it exclusive is what allows the superprofitable side of the business (the open market side) to subsidize cheap/free ships in house. If it's only a slight (and very temporary -- ie, until the port reflips) margin difference you are fighting over, it's just not enough to create that kind of economic dynamic, I think. All of this makes sense in terms of the larger game design, but it impacts signiifcantly the incentives to band together in symbiotic PvP/production groups because there is less you, as one PA (even a large one), can do to "control" certain resources for an extended period precisely because the game is not designed for that. In other words, it's fine for a PA to have in-house producers, but if everyone does it that way, there will be very little open market profit for these producers (because again everyone has access to the same resources more or less) so the system of using high open market profits to subsidize in-house discounts doesn't really work as well.

[NameTry2468]

Go play guild wars seriously, you can make a max level character from the get go just for pvp, if its too expensive or too risky with you 2 and 4 durability ships pfft go play eve online you get blown up thats it ship gone, and half your mods and gear which more often that not cost 2 to 3x the price of the ship or more.....
my god if you cant deal with putting up a few buildings making something by just clicking a button for a few db then hauling somewhere to sell you should really go play wow or hello kitty online they maybe be more your speed.

- Notice from the beginning of this thread, I said I thought Risk was completely in-line. However, Reward was not. Guild Wars is a great PVP game because it's low risk and low reward. However, I'm not looking for a Counterstrike-type game where you spawn at max everything after every death. PVP on the high seas was about high risk and high reward. Right now, there is only high risk, no reward.

That being said, I'm pretty certain that:
A) This thread is about PVP
and B) There is no PVP in Hello Kitty Online Adventure.

So if you're just here to put words in my mouth, and make yourself sound cool by bashing an argument that I'm not even making, and spouting little forum cliche's like the old "Go play Hello Kitty", then I present you with...


Cry much? I dont wanna grind i want l33t gear and max level and do nothing for it so i can pvp risk free all day on top if it is what i mostly get out of this thread.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/NameTry2468/comic2-555.png?t=1200997035

[NameTry2468]

Stuff....

EVE handled this well, I agree, but it came at a huge sacrifice that I don't think you touched on, and that was consensual PVP. EVE is a game for the hardcore, and if you located crucial resources in high PVP areas, it would certainly add a more realistic, balanced, and dynamic system of interaction to everything. I personally think that's how a game about a setting like this should operate. However, I can understand the desire to keep PVP as consensual as possible for the sake of letting more people enjoy more of the game. Unfortunately, they kind of dropped the ball when it came to justifying the consensual PVP they left in.

[cerebus23]

There is a general tone in many of the posts that this grind is too hard, the penalty is too hard the money is too hard to make, us pvpers want to pvp not be bothered with this other stuff those are the people that was directed at.

and while i agree marks are not the end all be all of pvp there should be something i do get tired of these wow kids with no risk pvp that come to other games and bemoan the fact omg i lose stuff when i die?! thats not fair junk that i have seen over and over and over since that mmo for the ultimate casual player got popular and guild wars for that matter where no risk pvp is the order of the day.

[NameTry2468]

There is a general tone in many of the posts that this grind is too hard, the penalty is too hard the money is too hard to make, us pvpers want to pvp not be bothered with this other stuff those are the people that was directed at.

and while i agree marks are not the end all be all of pvp there should be something i do get tired of these wow kids with no risk pvp that come to other games and bemoan the fact omg i lose stuff when i die?! thats not fair junk that i have seen over and over and over since that mmo for the ultimate casual player got popular and guild wars for that matter where no risk pvp is the order of the day.
Oh it's not hard. It's just boring and repetitive. Give me a couple of hours with some missions or the Open sea and I can grind like a champ. But I'll get tired of the game quickly. And what's wrong with people not liking a particular playstyle? You require a PVE player do even a couple of minutes of risky PVP and they rise up like you ate their first-born, but when a PVP'er doesn't want to bore themselves for hours on end grinding on bad computer AI just to play the part of the game he finds fun, everyone calls them lazy bums, and accuse them of just wanting to type /godmode and have the game played for them.

PVP'ers like PVP because there is a lot of risk involved. But only the most hardcore get to enjoy PVP right now because the moderate PVP'ers just don't see any point, since there is simply no reward at all to compensate for the high risk.

[Sally Sue]

You really expect me to believe you boarded and beat THIRTY SEVEN player captains in six hours, all by yourself (since you didn't have to share the marks with teammates)? You boarded and beat 1 ship captain in PVP every 10 minutes without fail or interruption?!? What server/nation where you fighting that your entire opposition decided to flag themselves and let gerbils play for them? And since you didn't balance in any losses, I'm assuming you didn't lose any durability points in the process!

You're either a really bad liar, or a godly PVP'er.

And second, you did the math wrong. In 10 hours, I got 120 marks from PVE. So even if you're telling me the truth, the statement should read more like "4 less hours, 83 less marks".

first, no i was not alone we fought as a full group and i was somewhat lucky with my rolls I grant you. I do stand correct earlyy morning and read it as 24 marks in 10 hours my bad. To add to it not only did i finish preboarding with all the 3 green general outfittings i wanted, i spent 25 marks on a lancer as well, but i have 167 in the bank. The society I belong to averaged 112 marks each in the bank plus what they already spent on refits and outfittings. Granted we are PvP centric and do work hard at it. We are lookign forward to it being easier once we can get the red circles out. your method will stay the same as it is somewhat fixed and does not relay on red circles or server population. Ours will vary based on those factors. Either way the fact is that there are rewards for PvP which was what the OP and many others were complaining was lacking. Now some might feel they are lacking for the risk reward but that is not the same as saying there are none.

oh and as for losses we did lose 5 ships total over the 2 weeks. Again I was lucky and was not sunk. I would also admit that the fact most of us played a great deal in closed beta does help at this point. I was fortunate to sail first with the Forsaken cosairs in closed then with Sangre in open. Excellent people and I learned alot from both groups. My server is below my avatar by the way.

[Elanimire]

So you think it's reasonable for a group of 6 players, only 1 PvP flagged, no way to see if they are grouped mind you (being the other person). You get attacked .. one guy .. awesome. Then 5 seconds later that attacker's other 5 NON PvP groupmates enter the area and blast your *** to grass.

Yes I will complain about that forever. Unless FLS puts in a way to show a PvPer or Non PvPer is grouped, and/or set it up that non PvPers cannot enter a PvP area, there is gonna be alot of complaining. Call me a carebear I don't care. I had one when I was a kid ... Loves a Lot I think it was (the one with the rainbow) Oh! and I had one of those cousins too, the racoon.

I really do want to play and enjoy the PvP here. Yeah I know it has risks .. so does waking up in the morning and going to work. And I do like the idea of gaining something of the mods that were on the ship you defeated ... well hope you can grab them and yeakem off before it hits sea bottom hah. :misha:


Yah this has got to go - all the rewards of pvp with none of the risk. Its more bloody carebear than the carebears.

Simply if one person in a group is PVP flagged then EVERYONE else in that group should be auto flagged also.

[NameTry2468]

first, no i was not alone. second, we fought as a full group and i was somewhat lucky with my rolls I grant you.

All right. I'm not saying it can't happen specially if you're a dedicated, hardworking PVP guild....but even you say you got lucky. How many total people do you think your group as a whole boarded and turned into Marks during those six hours? Not killed, mind you, but actually boarded?

Because I'll admit, I didn't get my 120 marks alone. I was doing the PVE patrol mission tours with about 3 of my guild-mates. We met up for about 2 hours each weeknight, and went out on patrol. So yeah, grouping made the missions go a whole lot faster, which is why I was able to get so many. But you know what the best part was? We didn't even have to share!

Basically, we were 4 people, doing 12 missions each evening for only 2 hours. Every evening, this group of 4 people generated, let's see.....96 Marks of Victory through mindless PVE grinding.

96 MoV's generated in 2 hours (we could actually make the number higher if we'd taken 2 more ships, even if they just sat there free-loading)
vs your 6-man PVP group generating a total of...how many marks in 6 hours?

It doesn't make you feel even a little cheated that we can make many more marks than you can in a fraction of the time, without putting any thought to our strategy and teamwork, while you guys are out there bustin' your balls, trying to be tactical, all the while risking valuable durability points?

If that doesn't make you upset, then you're a whole lot more patient than me.

[cerebus23]

And thats where port contention comes in really going by pre play pvp where there was no contention, no unrest and nothing to gain from pvp really but lost ships and with the low level cap you could hit 21 in a few days or a week of very casual play. then you were stuck either playing the market which in pre play the production way outstripped demand so prices plummeted, i mean ammo was going for 50db a crate? level 20 mods for 1k at most.

I wish contention was in for pre launch and a total reset before launch i really dont get why that was not done. Kinda odd that they just said none at all. So little pvp lowered demand for goods even further making the market a bad place to make money you could run missions but then you were burning xp for gold. So really the cash flow was outright horrible in pre launch especially if you were producing for your guild and not really selling much.

Now if things continue like that yea we are in trouble but i really dont see it going that way when the cap is lifted, port contention is turned on, and hopefully the servers get an influx of new blood, but this all remains to be seen.

[Sally Sue]

There should be some basic loot that can be merchant sold or pure coin drops based on level of the enemy you defeat in pvp. I have gathered a list of the levels and difficulty of port's patrol or blockade missions i can make a circuit without risk to my ship and make around 50 marks of victory in about an hour or 2 and then rinse and repeat every 24 hours. This level of marks would never be found from pvp battles especially group battles where marks arn't generated for each member. Not sure if their justification for dicing on a set number of marks per kill is a way to encourage smaller groups and larger battles, but it definately doesn't make the rewards for fighting worth losing expensive outfitting.

Another major issue with pvp is even if you defeat an enemy there is likely little to no loot offered. While i understand fittings not dropping why not randomly draw some loot up from the items/pieces that are used to craft the various fittings, so they can be then sold/turned into new fittings through the economy. The salvage skill of pirates helps us even out the 80% less coin from kills in pve, however since you generally have to sink an enemy in pvp you can't salvage so you get no coin/no salvage, and only the rare few gold or silver objects they might have forgot to offload. While the pvp becomes the major factor in rvr and contention late game there is no way to continue an extended pvp system when you have the need for lots of inputs with no rewards other then worthless marks. The expense of pvp is multiplied for the sides with lower populations as well since their economy isn't as efficient and they have more concentrated costs, where larger populations will divide costs of loss over their larger numbers.

the amount of marks a player 'drops" when sunk in pvp is based on lvl's

[flymetothemoon]

pvp in preboard was just to kill people.

but now the point to pvp (in the end) is to win the map. simple enough :yar:

[NameTry2468]

the amount of marks a player 'drops" when sunk in pvp is based on lvl's

Whoa, whoa, whoa...did you say "sunk"? As in, a player who's ship is destroyed (as in, not boarding combat) actually gives marks? And the number of marks rises by level? How steeply?

This is all information that I've never even heard before...are you sure?

[Sally Sue]

And thats where port contention comes in really going by pre play pvp where there was no contention, no unrest and nothing to gain from pvp really but lost ships and with the low level cap you could hit 21 in a few days or a week of very casual play. then you were stuck either playing the market which in pre play the production way outstripped demand so prices plummeted, i mean ammo was going for 50db a crate? level 20 mods for 1k at most.

I wish contention was in for pre launch and a total reset before launch i really dont get why that was not done. Kinda odd that they just said none at all. So little pvp lowered demand for goods even further making the market a bad place to make money you could run missions but then you were burning xp for gold. So really the cash flow was outright horrible in pre launch especially if you were producing for your guild and not really selling much.

Now if things continue like that yea we are in trouble but i really dont see it going that way when the cap is lifted, port contention is turned on, and hopefully the servers get an influx of new blood, but this all remains to be seen.


I agree woudl ahve been nice with contention for preboarding. However, I can understand why they took it out. Imagine what would have happen to say new french people logging in today and finding all their ports, but for starter ones, gone. What about server pop balance if peopel knew that say on rackham the spanish already won... The brits control Roberts and so forth. Many new people would pick servers based on that.

[NameTry2468]

pvp in preboard was just to kill people.

but now the point to pvp (in the end) is to win the map. simple enough :yar:
True, but for all that PVP'ers do to help win the map, they don't benefit any more from all the risk they took in the process than anybody in their nation who just stood back and decided to free-load off the PVP'ers work. Hence, the need for a better PVP reward than a self-pat on the back for helping their nation.

[flymetothemoon]

there are personal rewards to winning the map. i never won one, but i remember a thread about it in beta.

and I don't think non pvp participating players are freeloading anything. some people just prefer to be carebears, and others really like to pvp. i think a lot of the people who are into the pvp have no problem funding that hobby either, which thankfully, seems to come a whole lot from those carebears. so in the end, it all works out.

imo, it's more about the win for the nation as opposed for the win for the person. you can only have so much money in this game... there's never going to be the super cannon of destruction 10 selling for 10 million DBs

[Sally Sue]

Whoa, whoa, whoa...did you say "sunk"? As in, a player who's ship is destroyed (as in, not boarding combat) actually gives marks? And the number of marks rises by level? How steeply?

This is all information that I've never even heard before...are you sure?


Yes you get marks not just for people boarded but for ones sunk and i belive abandoned in pvp. I have not had anyoen abandon so can not confirm that. We do not accept surrenders so do not know about that either. However as they took the ability to get marks from surrender out during beta ( in order to prevent deals beign made ) I doubt the put it back in. As for lvls woudl ahve to search back for archive from beta. They made an adjust ment to the marks near the end of open beta. In order to slow ganking down ie lvl 40 running around just lookign for lvl 10 to skill and running from any fight of equal strength. They altered the marks to reflect lvls. To be hoenst I do not remember if it was the lvl range of the loser or if it was based on the compared lvl of the winner vs loser. I do know it was 1 mark for one range 2 for another.

[Sally Sue]

there are personal rewards to winning the map. i never won one, but i remember a thread about it in beta.

and I don't think non pvp participating players are freeloading anything. some people just prefer to be carebears, and others really like to pvp. i think a lot of the people who are into the pvp have no problem funding that hobby either, which thankfully, seems to come a whole lot from those carebears. so in the end, it all works out.

imo, it's more about the win for the nation as opposed for the win for the person. you can only have so much money in this game... there's never going to be the super cannon of destruction 10 selling for 10 million DBs

I agree with you 100%. I would add that in beta with the circles I was hired along with others to "escort" a pve FT many a time in and out of a red circle port. many peopel find it easier to hire groups they know who PvP to act as escorts in case there is a fight. After all their efforts in the economy have a direct effect on the RvR so it really is a team effort.

[flymetothemoon]

about the marks thing. i've seen them drop only when the ship is boarded. if the boarding party wins, the marks dropped, if the boarded ship is sunk while being boarded, the marks also drop.

and when level 21 ships were just outright sunk, i never saw a mark drop. maybe they do sometimes, but not for me. now for the case of abandoned ships, the highest level i've seen do that was 19 and no mark dropped.

all in all though, it's probably a bug, and probably not such an important one for the devs, since marks are so easily farmed

[NameTry2468]

there are personal rewards to winning the map. i never won one, but i remember a thread about it in beta.

and I don't think non pvp participating players are freeloading anything. some people just prefer to be carebears, and others really like to pvp. i think a lot of the people who are into the pvp have no problem funding that hobby either, which thankfully, seems to come a whole lot from those carebears. so in the end, it all works out.

imo, it's more about the win for the nation as opposed for the win for the person. you can only have so much money in this game... there's never going to be the super cannon of destruction 10 selling for 10 million DBs

Freeloaders, Carebears, or "people who just enjoy PVE more", fine, I'm not going to bicker about what to call them. The point is that if I spend all my time PVE'ing, I received not only all the gear, money, experience, Marks of Victory, and every other kind of reward you could imagine in this game. And while I'm busy helping myself to all of this, my nation's PVP'ers finish winning the map, and I'll also get the benefits from that!

How come PVP'ers lay everything on the line, but never benefit from anyone else's work? How come their only "reward" is the satisfaction of knowing they lost uncountable levels of doubloons and resources just to give people that they may not even know the same reward they got?

I'm not saying that people who aren't PVP'ing are bad or lazy. But it literally is one group of people carrying everyone else's weight out of pure altruism unless they get something valuable in the process too.

As for people being willing to "work to support the habit", well...I don't think so. You do have the more hardcore PVP'ers doing that, but I think a lot of would-be PVP'ers just don't see it as worth it. I for one, count myself in the would-be group.

[NameTry2468]

Yes you get marks not just for people boarded but for ones sunk and i belive abandoned in pvp. I have not had anyoen abandon so can not confirm that. We do not accept surrenders so do not know about that either. However as they took the ability to get marks from surrender out during beta ( in order to prevent deals beign made ) I doubt the put it back in. As for lvls woudl ahve to search back for archive from beta. They made an adjust ment to the marks near the end of open beta. In order to slow ganking down ie lvl 40 running around just lookign for lvl 10 to skill and running from any fight of equal strength. They altered the marks to reflect lvls. To be hoenst I do not remember if it was the lvl range of the loser or if it was based on the compared lvl of the winner vs loser. I do know it was 1 mark for one range 2 for another.

Oh. That's different. I mean, yeah. You don't have to board to get a mark....I guess. All you need is for the person to leave a derelict behind. Which 99% of the time will require boarding. So no, until they fix that, it's pretty much board = mark. As for the adjustment based on levels, you dont' really get more marks for pursuing a harder target. You just get 1 less mark for ganking a lowbie...

I hate to say it, but I don't think any of that makes MoV's gained through PVP any more rewarding.

[flymetothemoon]

Freeloaders, Carebears, or "people who just enjoy PVE more", fine, I'm not going to bicker about what to call them. The point is that if I spend all my time PVE'ing, I received not only all the gear, money, experience, Marks of Victory, and every other kind of reward you could imagine in this game. And while I'm busy helping myself to all of this, my nation's PVP'ers finish winning the map, and I'll also get the benefits from that!

How come PVP'ers lay everything on the line, but never benefit from anyone else's work? How come their only "reward" is the satisfaction of knowing they lost uncountable levels of doubloons and resources just to give people that they may not even know the same reward they got?

It literally is freeloading unless the PVP'ers carrying everyone else's weight get something valuable in the process too.
well the term freeloader seems a little harsh. and carebear is such a nice thing, what's wrong with that term?

but anyway, there are good things. it's fun to participate in player fights and port battles, that right there is a reward in itself. however let me put it to you in some sort of in game material reward: you'll never get a NPC freetrader carrying a full load of very expensive goodies, be it zinc ore, shipwright materials, or just a bunch of ship deeds :yar:

[Novaseeker]

EVE handled this well, I agree, but it came at a huge sacrifice that I don't think you touched on, and that was consensual PVP. EVE is a game for the hardcore, and if you located crucial resources in high PVP areas, it would certainly add a more realistic, balanced, and dynamic system of interaction to everything. I personally think that's how a game about a setting like this should operate. However, I can understand the desire to keep PVP as consensual as possible for the sake of letting more people enjoy more of the game. Unfortunately, they kind of dropped the ball when it came to justifying the consensual PVP they left in.

That's probably true. Under the current system, the PvPers need the things produced by the economic players, but the economic players don't really need the protection of the PvPers in order to produce effectively. Port contention isn't enough when you can still produce there even after a flip (at less profit) if you are a FT. AS a result I think what you are going to see are PvP oriented PAs and economic oriented PAs, and the game will slip pretty quickly in favor of the economic PAs. Why would a player who wanted to be a successful economic player join a PvP PA where the PvPers are going to expect (presumably as this is the idea) discounts when he could belong to an economic PA and simply reap the complete profit from all the PvPers? I mean, I know that people are supposed to be "playing for a side", but the economic game (being able to see the entire world's AH, trade anywhere, mitigate taxes on production anywhere) is much less oriented towards any one side and stands to make money in a much more mercenary way, which is what I fully expect will happen.

Long term this is going to cause problems for the PvPers. The two ways to solve the issue are to tie the producers and the PvPers closer together (which is what EVE does, but which probably won't work here for the reason you point out) or increase rewards for PvPing. Simply leaving it as is will almost certainly lead to real imbalances in the game fairly soon.

[Sally Sue]

well the term freeloader seems a little harsh. and carebear is such a nice thing, what's wrong with that term?

but anyway, there are good things. it's fun to participate in player fights and port battles, that right there is a reward in itself. however let me put it to you in some sort of in game material reward: you'll never get a NPC freetrader carrying a full load of very expensive goodies, be it zinc ore, shipwright materials, or just a bunch of ship deeds :yar:

made some one cry i am sure one night this past week we recived 8 deeds off one ship. :)

[NameTry2468]

well the term freeloader seems a little harsh. and carebear is such a nice thing, what's wrong with that term?

but anyway, there are good things. it's fun to participate in player fights and port battles, that right there is a reward in itself. however let me put it to you in some sort of in game material reward: you'll never get a NPC freetrader carrying a full load of very expensive goodies, be it zinc ore, shipwright materials, or just a bunch of ship deeds :yar:

Well you're right. Perhaps I'm being harsh. When I say freeloader, I don't really mean it in an aggressive way. I just mean that they happen to be getting rewarded for someone else's risk and work. I don't PVP most of the time as it stands, so if my nation wins the map, I couldn't help but admit I'm a freeloader too.

You say the "reward" is all the fun of being able to participate in port battles and player fights, and yes, I agree. Fun is one very good reward! However, fun should be my reward for the 50 bucks I spent to buy the game. As in...I've already earned fun! Fun should be what happens when I log into a game, not after I've "earned" it by grinding repetitive, unchallenging content. And if there is a feature in a game that players find particularly fun, perhaps it would be best if the barriers in the way of that fun weren't as high. Or if the barriers (the cost of losing) has to be high, then the fun should be self-reciprocating (rewards!) and succeeding at those challenges should let you get back to the fun faster.

As for the occasional cargo-laden merchant, you gotta admit, PVP is way too avoidable in this game for that to be a legitimate incentive to go out and risk your ship in PVP areas...

[Sally Sue]

Freeloaders, Carebears, or "people who just enjoy PVE more", fine, I'm not going to bicker about what to call them. The point is that if I spend all my time PVE'ing, I received not only all the gear, money, experience, Marks of Victory, and every other kind of reward you could imagine in this game. And while I'm busy helping myself to all of this, my nation's PVP'ers finish winning the map, and I'll also get the benefits from that!

How come PVP'ers lay everything on the line, but never benefit from anyone else's work? How come their only "reward" is the satisfaction of knowing they lost uncountable levels of doubloons and resources just to give people that they may not even know the same reward they got?

I'm not saying that people who aren't PVP'ing are bad or lazy. But it literally is one group of people carrying everyone else's weight out of pure altruism unless they get something valuable in the process too.

As for people being willing to "work to support the habit", well...I don't think so. You do have the more hardcore PVP'ers doing that, but I think a lot of would-be PVP'ers just don't see it as worth it. I for one, count myself in the would-be group.

I do not see the pve people as freeloaders. First, look at how you earend your marks. You were doing the quests for them. Those quests also would have effected contention points. So in the normal game you would be havign an effect not only on which ports went into and out of contention but on the port battle itself even fi you never recieved an invite. Remember, there are "buffs' for port battles based on extra contention points earned above the required amount to start the timer. People who cradft and trade have an effect as well. They provide the resoruces for the PvPs from ships to ammo to outfittings. Pvers sink NPCS this effects contention points in and of itself.

The way everythign intertwines in this game really is its strenght. Crafters, Pvers and PvPers are all workign togeather for the RvR here.

[NameTry2468]

I do not see the pve people as freeloaders. First, look at how you earend your marks. You were doing the quests for them. Those quests also would have effected contention points. So in the normal game you would be havign an effect not only on which ports went into and out of contention but on the port battle itself even fi you never recieved an invite. Remember, there are "buffs' for port battles based on extra contention points earned above the required amount to start the timer. People who cradft and trade have an effect as well. They provide the resoruces for the PvPs from ships to ammo to outfittings. Pvers sink NPCS this effects contention points in and of itself.

The way everythign intertwines in this game really is its strenght. Crafters, Pvers and PvPers are all workign togeather for the RvR here.

Again, I apologize if the term free-loader comes of as harsh, and I don't mean it to. But you're right about a whole lot of things here. The game does mesh PVE, PVP, and the economy with RVR really well. The sectors intertwine beautifully when you consider the different ways all different groups can help out with port battles and contention. FLS is really close to achieving an unprecedented and spectacular level of interaction between the three types of communities, and that's why I'm still sticking around to play the game. What I'm saying is that in all this intertwining, there is simply one loose end. Everyone else gets rewarded immediately for their contributions, and later again when victory is achieved...except the people who put more at risk than everyone else.

The least they could do is publish the rosters of the people who participated in the most recent port battles in the Victory Status window so a nation's merchants know who's covering their hides.

[PandaRuns]

Yeah I agree with having it known of the major battle events in some sort of window. Make it so the time of the battle/where it was took place along with the names of those involved and the result. Could even include a stat page about how many ships were sunk and such. Would be a really cool feature to have nations fully aware of the port battles that have taken place. Maybe some other stuff added in as well but covering port battles would be huge.

[flymetothemoon]

Yeah I agree with having it known of the major battle events in some sort of window. Make it so the time of the battle/where it was took place along with the names of those involved and the result. Could even include a stat page about how many ships were sunk and such. Would be a really cool feature to have nations fully aware of the port battles that have taken place. Maybe some other stuff added in as well but covering port battles would be huge.
yeah and eve like killmails would be great too :yar:

[Ogri]

"the idea of a game is to give rewards for doing the fun things in the game. "

No.

The idea of a game is to have fun playing it.

All I see here is some people angling for the MMO killer, the PvE MMO reward system.

The system that they love, yet pronounce they hate - the grinding. They love the grinding, because it gives them an unfair advantage over other players. Time played over skill.

Keep that failed PvE crap out of PotBS PvP please.

If you can't PvP without unfair advantage, go play something else, and don't pollute a great game with unrealistic expectations. I suspect you know exactly what you are asking for, and exactly why you are asking for it. Like destroying games much do you?

I'm sure FLS have plans how their PvP is going to progress, and as long as it is not in line with all the failed previous PvE MMO reward system BS, personally I, and I expect the vast majority of other players, will be perfectly happy.

If you want to drive away the vast bulk of players, sure, play fast and loose with rewards systems.

But don't complain when you have no more opposing players left to fight.

[NameTry2468]

"the idea of a game is to give rewards for doing the fun things in the game. "

No.

The idea of a game is to have fun playing it.

All I see here is some people angling for the MMO killer, the PvE MMO reward system.

The system that they love, yet pronounce they hate - the grinding. They love the grinding, because it gives them an unfair advantage over other players. Time played over skill.

Keep that failed PvE crap out of PotBS PvP please.

If you can't PvP without unfair advantage, go play something else, and don't pollute a great game with unrealistic expectations. I suspect you know exactly what you are asking for, and exactly why you are asking for it. Like destroying games much do you?

I'm sure FLS have plans how their PvP is going to progress, and as long as it is not in line with all the failed previous PvE MMO reward system BS, personally I, and I expect the vast majority of other players, will be perfectly happy.

If you want to drive away the vast bulk of players, sure, play fast and loose with rewards systems.

But don't complain when you have no more opposing players left to fight.

Are you talking about me? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.

I should specify though, if there was any confusion, that I am merely advocating that PVP'ers get rewards that will help them get back in the game. PVP is costly and risky, and you have to go back and grind out the doubloons to keep having fun. I am by no means advocating a rewards system that gives PVP'ers an unfair "advantage" in PVP. That is, this isn't me saying that I want a WoW-esque honor system where you spend months grinding honor points to get the High Warlord Shoulderpads of Epeen and suddenly you're stuck on that grinding treadmill just to compete. All I'm saying is that when it requires so much work to replace all of the resources lost in PVP, PVP'ers need something to help them get back in the game quicker, and avoid the grinding inherent in the recovery/preparation process.

Now look, I'm fine with PVP not having any rewards, but only if it has no risks either. When I play Team Fortress, for example, if I win the match, I won the match, I had fun, and now it's over, and I move on to the next match. No loss, no gain, just fun. In PotBS PVP, if I win, what it really means is that it's the loser instead of me who has to go back and farm PVE for hours just to get back into the fun.

That would be like if every time I win at Team Fortress, all I get to do is play another match, but when I lose, I have to solve math problems for an hour before I get to "earn" my next match. It just doesn't make sense.

If there's no rewards, don't attach any risks. Clearly, that kind of system wouldn't fit in a game like this, and PVP just wouldn't be fun without the risk of loss. However, as I've said probably a hundred times in this thread, High-Risk and Low-Rewards just doesn't work. If you impose a high risk, you gotta have a good reward.

[Elanimire]

Well I just posted this in the PVP forum, but it probably applies to this topic too...

Maybe have special skills for your career that can only be earnt through lots of map wins - in addition to your normal set. Make people choose wether they want a special skill or just and extra in one of the normal sets. Allow people to cross specialise - make it cost 5 skill points for every non class skill - eg NO taking trade connections would need 15 total. Or the reverse a FT with that NO defense skill at level 2 would need 15 total.

Give players something long term to work towards. These ideas may or may not be viable but just throwing them out there.

[NameTry2468]

Well I just posted this in the PVP forum, but it probably applies to this topic too...

Maybe have special skills for your career that can only be earnt through lots of map wins - in addition to your normal set. Make people choose wether they want a special skill or just and extra in one of the normal sets. Allow people to cross specialise - make it cost 5 skill points for every non class skill - eg NO taking trade connections would need 15 total. Or the reverse a FT with that NO defense skill at level 2 would need 15 total.

Give players something long term to work towards. These ideas may or may not be viable but just throwing them out there.

The ideas are viable insomuch as they are already partly in the game. A map win for your nation actually does give everyone in the nation an extra skill!

However, as I've said before, all this does is make it so that everyone, regardless of how much they risked to help the nation win, will benefit from the sacrifice of the players who lost the most resources, and gained nothing in return. Long-term rewards are cool, and I like that they're in the game. However, there is little reason for an individual PVP'er to go put the ship he spent time and money to build on the line when he could just sit back and wait for the victory. Everyone else (PVE'rs and Econ players) gets rewarded immediately for their contributions to the campaign, and later again when victory is achieved...except the people who put more at risk than everyone else, and didn't get any rewards in the meantime to help them recover.

[flymetothemoon]

but gaining 8 ship deeds (as in the example posted above) isn't a high enough reward?

[Elanimire]

The ideas are viable insomuch as they are already partly in the game. A map win for your nation actually does give everyone in the nation an extra skill!

However, as I've said before, all this does is make it so that everyone, regardless of how much they risked to help the nation win, will benefit from the sacrifice of the players who lost the most resources, and gained nothing in return. Long-term rewards are cool, and I like that they're in the game. However, there is little reason for an individual PVP'er to go put the ship he spent time and money to build on the line when he could just sit back and wait for the victory. Everyone else (PVE'rs and Econ players) gets rewarded immediately for their contributions to the campaign, and later again when victory is achieved...except the people who put more at risk than everyone else, and didn't get any rewards in the meantime to help them recover.

I understand it gives you a skill :) I meant extra skills that can ONLY be gotten through map wins!

But yes your right it doesnt address the day to day risk vs reward of the avg pvper.

[NameTry2468]

but gaining 8 ship deeds (as in the example posted above) isn't a high enough reward?
When does a real PVP'er walk around with 8 ship deeds? This moron probably thought it was secure cargo or something. It's not like this kind of thing is going to happen often, let alone consistently. Yeah, someone could be stupid enough to drive a gold-laden galleon into a red PVP circle, but that doesn't mean it's a "reward system." If it were like EVE, and you could count on people to be in PVP areas to get valuable resources, then yes, that would work, great! But in this game, PVP is way too avoidable to have the rewards be solely dependant on a player having the level of stupidity that someone would have to have in order to take valuable merchandise into a red circle.

[Elanimire]

but gaining 8 ship deeds (as in the example posted above) isn't a high enough reward?

8 Ship deeds is probably a tad too much reward. I think asking for your expenses to be completely covered is a tad unrealistic. What you could aim for however is a 60 - 80% rate of coverage. Use multiple means if need be - Random loot, Bounty Hunter quests (Kill x enemy players for x gold), Offer coin rewards for completing unrest stuff (except the tradeskill turn ins) - this is a pvp related quest, even if it is technically pve, PvP'ers will do them to earn unrest.

I really dont think ship deeds should drop though. That would just make the economy fubared.

[flymetothemoon]

When does a real PVP'er walk around with 8 ship deeds? This moron probably thought it was secure cargo or something. It's not like this kind of thing is going to happen often, let alone consistently. Yeah, someone could be stupid enough to drive a gold-laden galleon into a red PVP circle, but that doesn't mean it's a "reward system." If it were like EVE, and you could count on people to be in PVP areas to get valuable resources, then yes, that would work, but in this