Rate ship balancing suggestion

[JJWolf]

I know it's a bit of a sore point these days as these threads get locked down hard and fast but its been nagging me for quite a long time so I'll get it off my chest anyway before my interest in this game finally ends for PBs and PvE.

Can a dev answer if they considered applying to 1st and 2nd rates similar penalties that apply in a fallback:

* Unable to initiate PvP
* Unable to join combat of an existing PvP
* Cannot be awarded anything for sinking another ship in PvP
* Altered cargo capacity to something a LOT less to prevent being used as cargo ships and more in-line with being pulled out only when a PB is on.

Some form of historical realism is that these ships were mostly used in large fleet engagements and never sailed without escorts.

You could reduce the durabilities to 1 and 2 per deed which escalates the overall cost without increasing the initial econ investment. Why not put a hard limit on how many deeds can be turned in for a ship per character or account? (1 for 1st rates, 3 for 2nd rates as a suggestion?) Surely there is some way/form of bringing these spectacular ships back without unbalancing it? They were one of the biggest highlights in PBs and an awesome sight to see when sitting in the water next to one in a puny 3rd rate. PBs were a major slug fest and sinking a 1st or 2nd rate was a major econ victory for any nation regardless of the end result of the PB, nowadays from what I hear on Roberts, most nations struggle to find players to participate in them.

Funny how there was much discussion behind the curtain on how to balance this issue before it was decided to just remove them. There wasn't anything that I recall that was focused to us players asking us for ideas on the issue which could have gathered much more insight from a wider audience being the actual people who utilise the end product.

[Ulot]

You can't do two different sets of balancing in PB's and the OS. If the first rate exists, you have to balance other ships against it, which means making them even stronger. Which means back to the days of the OPHMC.

And there was no such thing as an "economic victory" in this game, never was. Whatever scintilla of hope there was for that was obliterated with dailies and insurance. There was no real cost to them, and everyone started pumping them out en masse. Whenever a group decided to come out on the OS with super capitals (4 first rates 2 HMC's or something of the sort), your only choice was to literally dock up or come out just as heavy.

Roberts long had a tradition of not bringing out the supercapitals except when absolutely neccessary, as they recognized it was bad for the game, and frigate battles were the most fun.

With all due respect, the input from the "wider audience" so far who favor keeping them demonstrates they really don't care what the reasons are against them, they simply want their shinies.

There's no way to balance them without resorting to mega power creep. As far as "historical realism", you have to be consistent. There were never masses of SOL's in this region.

[MuhammedWasRight]

Originally Posted by Ulot You can't do two different sets of balancing in PB's and the OS. If the first rate exists, you have to balance other ships against it, which means making them even stronger. Which means back to the days of the OPHMC. And there was no such thing as an "economic victory" in this game, never was. Whatever scintilla of hope there was for that was obliterated with dailies and insurance. There was no real cost to them, and everyone started pumping them out en masse. Whenever a group decided to come out on the OS with super capitals (4 first rates 2 HMC's or something of the sort), your only choice was to literally dock up or come out just as heavy. Roberts long had a tradition of not bringing out the supercapitals except when absolutely neccessary, as they recognized it was bad for the game, and frigate battles were the most fun. With all due respect, the input from the "wider audience" so far who favor keeping them demonstrates they really don't care what the reasons are against them, they simply want their shinies. There's no way to balance them without resorting to mega power creep. As far as "historical realism", you have to be consistent. There were never masses of SOL's in this region.

Yeah, tyranny of the minority brings the best ideas to the forefront. From 2008-2011 the tyranny of the minority has produced what we have now. /facepalm

[Ulot]

I really don't see any actual arguments to substantiate that. The idea that for those 3 years this game was a pvp'ers paradise, really doesn't hold water.

[Lamork]

The big hash out was on the PnP beta forum so you didn't see it unless you were a tester.

What it came down to was in order to leave them in, the restrictions would have been massive and difficult to code and still be fair. What you touch on isn't even close to what was suggested. There just wasn't time and still be able to release PnP.

The ships were meant to be rare flagships, but they weren't.

If they come back at all, which is unlikely at the moment, it won't be for years.

Individually, the ships are not a problem. Its when you had a bunch of them together that they really messed with the balance of the game.

Suggestions to keep them in included limiting the flagships to 1 per group on the OS, only 1 1st and 1 or 2 2nd rates per side in a PB. Limits to the total number of these ships per nation etc.
All of which came down to making choices of Who gets to sail them and making that fair.

It was easier in the long run to just eliminate the recipes, let the ships slowly sink their way out of the system, and do the necessary re balancing without them.

[BiffyClyro]

MMORPGs have many facets and offer content to different playstyles. This is good. However there has to be an acknowledgement that this game is primarily centred around RvR combat.
You do not have to partake in any combat if it's not your thing but you still have to accept it is the primary reason for the game's life.
Ships of the line were built for one purpose only... Combat. I don't think I've seen a single genuine post from a player asking for 1st and 2nd rates to return so he/she can use them in PvP. All requests are from players who want to use them in dailies or PvE.

Sorry but no. The game is better for their demise.