Who killed econ

[Maibec]

Originally Posted by Remus The point is, why would you even want to make LSBs when you could just make iron ingots and get a higher weekly profit for far less work? Am I missing something?

I'm not sure that it occurs to many people that they could use their econ slots to make iron ingots, buy their LSBs off the AH, and wind up ahead.

I'm not sure that many people believe it even after having been told as much directly.

Do you think there are people who make LSBs who, having read your post, are going to go out and switch production to iron ingots? I doubt it.

[Qew Qew]

Originally Posted by Remus Morgan Newberry made a complaint about LSBs which perhaps does deserve a comment. LSBs are a little different from other items and for the general econ player have been notably underpriced relative to other goods since 1.12 and possibly before. I more or less gave up making LSBs in 2009 for this reason. Some players set up specially to make LSBs, either on their own or as part of a shipbuilding set-up. Typically these are players who make all their own raw materials and also have an RvR interest, so their costs are as low as can be and they are willing to sell (to their own nation at least) for little profit. In addition LSBs are (or were - are they still?) available as a CoC exchange, so at every map end a number of players would be willing to turn their CoCs into cash through selling LSBs. Therefore LSBs have long been significantly underpriced, and LSB ships tend to be priced cheaper than their non-LSB counterparts, relative to their labour requirements. Am I missing something?

Unless you are Captains club, you no longer get enough CoCs for LSB trade for winning map.

I have no issue making LSBs by myself. Again the problem comes down to people want to charge such a high markup on the goods I need to create the LSB with, then dont want to pay the same markup when I have to sell. That is the problem with Bundle boats on the AH and why societies bring them in house. I estimate an HMC made in all L9/L10 ports with a master shipyard is approx 850K. figure 30% markup on materials brings it to 1,105,000 for cost to make. Add 100K or so for the 50 Royals at 2K a pop, price is 1,205,000 to certify it.

now for me to make 30% profit on that a price of an HMC should be 1,566,500. That gets expensive for people to have to buy a lot of them if you need to get off AH or buy mats from AH.

So, societies brought it in house. Now HMCs are back to costing 850K plus royals (unless you do a ton of fleeting) and saved 700,000 on the exact same boat.

Makes sense to me. Why pay AH prices when you dont have to?

[Coffey]

Why would Trade Unions tolerate out of AH trading?

Apply a rep penalty for out of auction house trading .

Should encourage players to by such items from the auction house.

Item would need a minimum base price to avoid using the AH for in house trading or as I like to call it, trading small.

Now you would have to play all these extra characters in order to repair all those reputations. If you don't maintain your reputation then you wont be able to trade with that alt at all.

[Vosper]

Originally Posted by contracycle The 1-player production line players and intra-society traders killed it.

So your saying that me, as one player in the entire game, making everything I need and stocking up materials to supply my own boats, outfittings, ammo and Mods without having to buy anything from any one has destroyed econ and the game?

With that mentality then with as little paly time I have had lately the game should be booming, why isnt it?

[PaulG]

If you make everything yourself then it means no one supplies you with goods, therefore no economy.

If you can make stuff and no one wants to buy it you have 2 choices, either make everything yourself and compound the problem or drop economy altogether and go fleet/mission.

I don't have a real issue with the 1 man supplying just himself but the guys that run 40+ alts to dominate the economy at the exclusion of everyone else just shuts people out.

If we were to look at how companies operate in real life no one would choose to self supply everything, for example does McDonalds grow its own potatoes, rear it own cattle etc?

Personally I can't be bothered with the economy anymore and yet for most of my time in game that's pretty much all I did. In summary the practices of others have stopped me loving this part of the game.

I'm not suggesting that the economy is completely dead but it is certainly hurting and the initial post was because of how players reacted to the reduction in stored labour.

[Kaede_Baq]

Originally Posted by PaulG for example does McDonalds grow its own potatoes, rear it own cattle etc?

They do, which is a large part of the problem similar to the one man econ's in potbs. McDonalds outcompete smaller forces on the hamburger market since they cannot rival with prices the bigger fast food restaurant's can offer, thus shoving them on the margain's of the food industry. The fast food industry is also one of the biggest contributers to CO2 emissions, and the horrendous gene manipulations we do to cttle, and the mistreatment of food animals.
Same goes with the middle suppliers in potbs, because they can't compete with the self sustaining econ'ers prices, leading to less players on the market that could try make a profit on it.

[PaulG]

Didn't appreciate McDonalds went to that length, just assumed they used their size to force supplier's prices down.

If they ever realised that people really don't like gherkins they could save themselves a fortune!

[Daisy Duck]

Originally Posted by Sensou.Shichiya They do, which is a large part of the problem similar to the one man econ's in potbs. McDonalds outcompete smaller forces on the hamburger market since they cannot rival with prices the bigger fast food restaurant's can offer, thus shoving them on the margain's of the food industry. The fast food industry is also one of the biggest contributers to CO2 emissions, and the horrendous gene manipulations we do to cttle, and the mistreatment of food animals. Same goes with the middle suppliers in potbs, because they can't compete with the self sustaining econ'ers prices, leading to less players on the market that could try make a profit on it.

QFT,

In RL, It's not just the fast food industry, It's the major food supermarkets, they force the the suppliers to sell at bare min rates, threatning them till they fold and drop there price or they buy them out!!. Then the a*s hats quad tripple the price to us consumers!.

Who Killed Econ?, best ask the powers that be!!. The only way to fix the econ in this game is the return of the blind A/H, unless this is done more & more people will give up econ.

Ducky

[Nestcrow]

This isn't entirely true.
Place where I lived before when I came out of a Subways some guy waiting outside gave me a menu for a different sandwich maker thingy. I was like lol really?
Well, I went there and they had different names but basically the same things, good quality. Some of their equip even had subway labels. I later asked them about it, they were idependent, didn't want to enter a franchise contract, bought the stuff themselves. At first it was only the couple that owned it working there, later they were hiring help and adding to the menu. So I think they did well for themselves. Total ripoff lol, but I got a sandwich there like every week. Support your local economy. 'Same as usual?' ... So ok, only an anecdote but just to show that it isn't impossible to compete with labels.

Btw. in real life, it's a mix of power, reputation, quality and price (and random customer decisions) determining competitiveness. Throw in questionable practices to cut costs like animal mistreatment or bad working conditions.
But if someone outcompetes by virtue of better quality and price alone that's not a problem it's a good thing.

[The Dragonfly]

What a good laugh mate, bad own goal.

Originally Posted by PaulG If you make everything yourself then it means no one supplies you with goods, therefore no economy.

Well, you will have excess, and unless you want to sit on it hoping to hatch something, you'll flog it off, so there will be a start of some economy.

Originally Posted by PaulG If you can make stuff and no one wants to buy it you have 2 choices, either make everything yourself and compound the problem or drop economy altogether and go fleet/mission.

Wrong, if nobody wants to buy it, you go bust. Only one choice, the latter, go fleet/mission. Mind you, if you fail at eco, you probably stink at fleeting as well.

Originally Posted by PaulG I don't have a real issue with the 1 man supplying just himself but the guys that run 40+ alts to dominate the economy at the exclusion of everyone else just shuts people out.

The only good thing about FLS encouraging multiple accounts is, that anyone, with a bit of brain, can set up a production line (about 12 accounts and you're laughing) and produce more than he'll ever needs, i.e. sell the excess cheaper than the 40+ guy, i.e. kill any market dominance. In that sense the market works perfectly.

Originally Posted by PaulG If we were to look at how companies operate in real life no one would choose to self supply everything, for example does McDonalds grow its own potatoes, rear it own cattle etc?

Do they still exist (this is 2012, isn't it?) ?!? In any case, bad choice of example, they did (do) exactly that (well documented) decades ago - basically, the bigger the company, the greedier the owners/shareholders.

Originally Posted by PaulG Personally I can't be bothered with the economy anymore and yet for most of my time in game that's pretty much all I did. In summary the practices of others have stopped me loving this part of the game.

So, you failed or succeeded to compete. Failed - you gave up; Succeeded - there's nothing left to achieve. I'm not looking forward to the latter (approaching), I'm not contemplating the former.

Originally Posted by PaulG I'm not suggesting that the economy is completely dead but it is certainly hurting and the initial post was because of how players reacted to the reduction in stored labour.

Actually, it is pretty dead. That, and the fact that FLS encourages multiple accounts, is the reason for all those 1 man bands (the stored labour change just would be the final nail in the coffin by driving those away and nothing much being produced any more). I started out optimistically with one account, but when I could buy Oak for only thrice the production cost (if I was lucky) and still have to haul it to where I need it, it made my own production pointless. So I had to take the multiple accounts route as provided.

Also, if you want to draw parallels to RL, why is there no hauling services, e.g. get somebody to transport your stuff from A to B at a price (higher price, of course, when there are red bubbles involved). And why can't I rent/hire out production capacity from/to others, that do not have those structures? Well, the answer is, it resamples RL too much, and this is a GAME.

Now, I can handle all this and am doing pretty well, but I'd still like to see a bit more of what every commentator thinks it should be. So I started selling some (excess) components at a reasonable price and buying other components (to save me time) at a fair enough price, not much interest in that though so far I'm affraid to say.


One last comment on this point, why is it called Auction House? So far I haven't seen any auctions anywhere. All I've seen so far is a Stock Exchange, somewhat different thing. If there actually would be an "Auction House", you know, with reserve prices and bidding and all that, that might do a lot to get an active economy going. Just a tought.

Still, had a good laugh.

Sad though, reading and writting long posts in fora is more interesting than playing the actual game at the moment!!!