PVP is hard.

[Josh_Brown]

Please don't take this to imply that I think PotBS should appeal to every type of gamer, or should isolate the population entirely into separate elements. I would say that a better strategy would be to focus on the strongest aspects of the game, PvP, RvR, and the economy, and how they integrate together, than to separate them. I would, however, suggest that there are a few things that should be focused on:

1) Cheap, fun PvP.

Skirmish is a nice tool for doing a little training or an occasional friendly match, but its removal from the larger "world" of PotBS makes it less popular than ad hoc PvP. A possible improvement might be to put together some sort of mode small rewards set-up for victory in semi-competitive matches, but no actual losses, and a wager mode, where players could put up a few doubloons or marks or goods and the winning side would get the spoils. An additional "fun" thing that would be solely PvP oriented, without impact to the larger game RvR and economic environment, a good training opportunity for new players, and, by adding some things to compete for, potentially an attraction experienced PvPers.

2) Expand RvR activities.

There are few players that don't like PBs (even the ones who "don't PvP" ), and generally speaking, a lot more players like group engagements than are solely focused on 1v1 contests. A couple of factors are involved here, one of which is the Social appeal of a team environment, another of which is that "gimmicky" tactics tend to be less useful and prevalent in group fights, and at least one player has suggested that larger group engagements may be more forgiving and less psychologically stressful. In any event, three 24v24 battles every few days make RvR very exclusive, which is not conducive to large populations; and at the same time, fewer players participating results in fewer players with experience to fill in during population lulls, and generally discourages RvR participation (who wants to grind a bunch of fleets but never get to go to a PB?). Adding other things to do (something like a recently suggested "Port Raid" system would not be a bad idea at all, and would be similar to the original vision of the "Swashbuckling" system in many ways.)

3) They're Colonies, Aren't They?

An additional question with the whole ad hoc PvP/Econ/RvR dilemma is not just how to encourage some econ runs into red zones, as I previously mentioned, but also to make econ a metric in the overall RvR metric. As it stands, the only value econ really has is ships replacement (there's also an intangible in that some players really enjoy econ). Port control doesn't matter in the economy as long as goods are available, and most players aren't that interested in protecting shipping within their nation, particularly if it requires them to sail very far from where their PvP boat is parked outside MT. (An interesting example of a nation coming to the rescue of a hauler happened one night when a Spanish PvP group I was in caught a Bucc Levi full of silver ingots outside of MT. Several fast CTs quickly jumped in the fight, hit us with speed debuffs until the hauler could make good his escape, then ran themselves. I doubt many nat merchants have gotten such good protection, particularly outside of the Greater Antilles ports. It was amusingly close to the sorts of scenarios envisioned during the early game design, but the nat/rat roles reversed.) To get back to the point, though, protecting commerce should be a much bigger priority for most national factions than collecting bounties or raiding remote settlements with minimal economic significance, but as it stands, x-teaming makes a lot of port control irrelevant, and even for players who choose not to puddle-jump the red zones, it's only a few days until it clears and they'll generally wait it out. Few occupying forces choose to run down the local production infrastructure or jack up enemy taxes badly, as these actions will often cause enemy merchants and shipwrights to simply quit playing for the remainder of the map, thereby reducing the chances of "good" PBs. Looking at it from a conquest perspective, it seems silly to encourage enemy nations to produce war materials in your port for their own faction (unless perhaps you are extremely wary of being attacked and wish to curry favor), but the fact is that the best reward of RvR (for most players) is the opportunity for fun, large-scale PvP engagements. Which brings up the next point...

4) So You Won the Caribbean. Now What?

Currently, conquest rewards amount to a few CoCs and commendations/pennants. Not bad, but nothing that's that useful to players past a certain point (nice to pick up you first Victor's Armor 2 as a new player, naturally!) Part of the problem is that the rewards can't be too good, or else the winning nation stands too strong of a chance the next round. Likewise, last place is actually second place, since they get both "Underdog" economic tools, and some nice bonus conquest points to start the next map. All of which doesn't provide any significant incentive to a vet (who already has plenty of stuff, and can generally get better through MoV turn-ins), and, as I've previously stated, the system isn't terribly inclusive to new participants. And on the topic of bringing more people in...

5) How Do you Feed All Those People, Anyway?

In the real world, natural limitations tend to provide a cap to how many (healthy) people can occupy a single area or nation, before factors like malnutirtion, increased disease outbreaks from overcrowding and poor sanitation, and outright starvation, begin to take a toll on the populace. Video games tend to be simplified affairs, though, so those factors never come up... which leads to gross population balances between factions based upon their perceived desirability. A danger remains, therefore, in letting sheer volume of population dictate the outcome of RvR and ad hoc PvP engagements, since a) numbers will tend to win and b) winning is more important than fair play in a loss-based environment that punishes failure (reference: PotBS 2008-2012). However, population leveling incentives have always been an afterthought in this game, at most appearing back in 2009 shortly before closure of 3 servers due to continuing population decline. (After that, it was determined that population was good enough, and they were removed.) However, rather than simply encouraging new players to level their toon more rapidly in low-pop nations, why not institute an "underdog" system, of sorts, to encourage dispersion from high-pop nations to low-pop ones? Creating economic modifiers to db/loot drops and lot hours based on nation population levels (or lack thereof) would better emulate real-life pressures (the lower-pop navies might have better access to good technology than the numerically superior competition) and could make participating in underpopulated nations a more desirable situation, and encourage a general leveling of the population curve.

6) But Back to Population...

We've already seen that the primary enjoyment mechanic in RvR (and to a lesser degree, PvP) isn't solely the rewards for winning, but the satisfaction of participating frequently. In that context, taking measures that would limit an opposing nation's capacity to continue fighting are undesirable, since knocking out a few key ports will likely result in the nation "folding" for the rest of the map. However, by contrast, if port control means nothing to a nation's economic and RvR enthusiasts, they won't bother to defend it, resulting in more boring PBs that people don't bother showing up to. Which prompts the question...

7) Should the "Player-Driven" Economy and the "Colonial RvR" Economy Even Be the Same Thing?

I'm going to propose (in a radical departure from the past four years of play) that maybe they shouldn't. Defining resources that are less-essential (or downright non-essential) to ship, fitting, and consumable replacement mechanics, but vital to conquest point generation, would give RvR players something worthwhile to fight over that wouldn't drive anyone out of competing in the current map. Dividing the tow could keep PvP action flowing at a brisk clip, while breathing fresh life into the nations vs. nation struggle for control of the Caribbean.

[RaiVeN]

Lot of ways to learn how to play, skirmish, cheap pvp, watch videos..

If you want to put this like 50% that is bad pvp and this game is death. If a new player can beat you easy is because is not good pvp game and not skill is needed for it. Just try and learn capri mc is good for 1v1 to learn and you will sink, but is that we have, everyone sinks at start, some learn faster some slower some never... Just try.

The problem is that the 75% of pvpers maybe are veterans, if "new" people would be active and interesting on it, new players would have more chance...

[Neil Hannon]

The Port Raiding idea, or a variation of it that gives more immediate satisfaction than hours of grinding a port and then days of waiting for the PB by which time I've lost interest, is a fantastic direction for some new content and to breathe some life back into the game. Want!

[mdb851]

Why not just make it so that if you attack someone 10 levels below or more, you gain nothing by beating them. Also, if said person is sunk or boarded, and they lose, they will not lose their ship or dur. This would stop low level ganking.

[PaulG]

Perfect sense and hopefully something FLS are working on according some captains' club members.

[Cpt Red]

I would say that if you want to learn PvP you need to learn basics first. Getting into red zone after you hit 50 wont teach you anything than calculating on how much you lost.
If you want to learn basics, you need to do PvE. Do fleets of 8 on your own, learn skill mechanics and see which combos are best, respec into different specs and try all skills yourself, do not ask for "what skill set is the best" because people can tell you but it wont help you as you wont know how to use it efficiently. Once you can down 8 easy, move to 12. 12 is more of survivability task, it can be hard to ride up to 12 and get out alive. That way you can have a glance at your survivability skills.
Once you are efficient with 8 and 12, head to skirmish and have a 1v1. There you will learn maneuver, see drawbacks of your ship/s in PvP and I assume at that point you would know what and how to change in order to improve drawbacks you dont like about your ship/s.
Then look up on skill planners such as http://www.gumworm.com/index.php?id=187 for another career skills and try to spot weaknesses and how to use them against certain career. Once you be comfortable with all mentioned above, you will be more or less prepared for red zone.

Edit: Forgot to add about Avcom. It is essential you learn it, as a lot of pvp encounter are boarding. To learn Avcom, board large (600+ crew) elite ships without de crewing them.

[Daisy Duck]

Originally Posted by Cpt Red I would say that if you want to learn PvP you need to learn basics first. Getting into red zone after you hit 50 wont teach you anything than calculating on how much you lost. If you want to learn basics, you need to do PvE. Do fleets of 8 on your own, learn skill mechanics and see which combos are best, respec into different specs and try all skills yourself, do not ask for "what skill set is the best" because people can tell you but it wont help you as you wont know how to use it efficiently. Once you can down 8 easy, move to 12. 12 is more of survivability task, it can be hard to ride up to 12 and get out alive. That way you can have a glance at your survivability skills. Once you are efficient with 8 and 12, head to skirmish and have a 1v1. There you will learn maneuver, see drawbacks of your ship/s in PvP and I assume at that point you would know what and how to change in order to improve drawbacks you dont like about your ship/s. Then look up on skill planners such as http://www.gumworm.com/index.php?id=187 for another career skills and try to spot weaknesses and how to use them against certain career. Once you be comfortable with all mentioned above, you will be more or less prepared for red zone. Edit: Forgot to add about Avcom. It is essential you learn it, as a lot of pvp encounter are boarding. To learn Avcom, board large (600+ crew) elite ships without de crewing them.

I understand what you are saying, & yes it is a nice early learning curve.

Though if you want to realy survive in pvp once 50, your best to try low lvl pvp first to get a feel. Now, I know I have posted this same comment many times, but if you try It can work as a learning curve.

As Cpt Red says avcom is important, but it can be avoided in battle if you keep your speed up & wind angles.

Ducky

[Grutte Pier]

Originally Posted by BigBJW Look, I'm the player this is aimed at, ...playing less than a year (leveled up 3 characters) - and 2wins/30losses in PvP. So if you want to know what the people you are concerned about think - Listen up! Yes PvP is hard, and I'm an old guy who wasn't raised on computer games...but if you vets really want to know why PvP is too hard for new players (causing your stated original concern) I'll tell ya straight out - It's the DeBuffs.... Yep, that's what destroys newer players - and I don't know what you can do about it. You take any player who goes out and does his missions & PvE's 1,000+ ships and he learns... He learns what his ship can do and what his skills are - and he gets good at it ....he also has enough close calls that he learns what not to do - which is even more important. So now he has a learned-by-experience knowledge base, and everything in the world is predictable - and consistent with that hard earned knowledge base. Then comes PvP, and the world has flipped upside down..... If he didn't get jumped by a wolf-pack he's lucky - but either way - he suddenly finds that NOTHING the game has taught him works...in fact this whole world is a through-the-looking-glass version of what he thought he knew. He can't move - he can't turn - his sails just evaporated - and when he hits back he does no appreciable damage. Now you vets out there are saying "awe shut up and learn like we did....NOOB!" But if you really want to know what's wrong with PvP - I'm telling it like it is. If you want to make changes to keep new players interested - then either get rid of debuffs that clap a player in irons.... or make his leveling up experience mirror PvP....otherwise it's all worthless. That's my 2c and you can take it or leave it....but it's the unvarnished truth.

npcs are programmed to circle you and press spacebar, nothing else
your surprised that players use a different tactic?
this is not different in any game with pvp(appart from the super stupidity the npcs have in this game, most ai are not yet able to match the human brain)




btw, im shocked, it seems that this guy is the reason for the new patch, he words excactly what fls thinks is the reason that the game is to hard for new players, and i think hes wrong

[Capitane Jean]

Originally Posted by BigBJW Look, I'm the player this is aimed at, ...playing less than a year (leveled up 3 characters) - and 2wins/30losses in PvP. So if you want to know what the people you are concerned about think - Listen up! Yes PvP is hard, and I'm an old guy who wasn't raised on computer games...but if you vets really want to know why PvP is too hard for new players (causing your stated original concern) I'll tell ya straight out - It's the DeBuffs.... Yep, that's what destroys newer players - and I don't know what you can do about it. You take any player who goes out and does his missions & PvE's 1,000+ ships and he learns... He learns what his ship can do and what his skills are - and he gets good at it ....he also has enough close calls that he learns what not to do - which is even more important. So now he has a learned-by-experience knowledge base, and everything in the world is predictable - and consistent with that hard earned knowledge base. Then comes PvP, and the world has flipped upside down..... If he didn't get jumped by a wolf-pack he's lucky - but either way - he suddenly finds that NOTHING the game has taught him works...in fact this whole world is a through-the-looking-glass version of what he thought he knew. He can't move - he can't turn - his sails just evaporated - and when he hits back he does no appreciable damage. Now you vets out there are saying "awe shut up and learn like we did....NOOB!" But if you really want to know what's wrong with PvP - I'm telling it like it is. If you want to make changes to keep new players interested - then either get rid of debuffs that clap a player in irons.... or make his leveling up experience mirror PvP....otherwise it's all worthless. That's my 2c and you can take it or leave it....but it's the unvarnished truth.

I know some old pep's who've managed. Read your post again and think. It's like attempting chess and quit when someone checkmates you the first time you play. You make it sound as you are a helpless person without any debuffs on your player.

Personally, i got my **** handed to me - I was ganked to oblivion when leveling. This made me swear to myself to never ever gank. I've failed miserably at solo PvP (I'm still failing miserably at solo PvP); this made me look up the forums for advice on what skills to get, what ships to use and what tactics to perform.

If I realise I'm always demasted, I fit my ship to counter that. If I realise my crew dies too easily, I take skills that resist it, or fit to resist it. I mean, there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to do what someone else does?

[alexkidd62]

I Re-up this topic because it looks interesting, Im a newcomer, I capped lvl50 in 1 week and I play for 2 weeks right now.

Now im going to give you my point of view, I've tryed to get involved in pvp but right now im beginning to be really frustrated. In all of your answer I didnt find this : "the cost of pvp".

For a newcomer the cost of pvp is completely "non affordable". You wont be able to go back in the fight just after being beaten to death, you loose you ship (duras), your fits, your money which is time right? (time is money!).

So with all that you cant afford pvp by being alone... alright so lets find a soc but... in that case you'll fully depend on the soc and have to count on your mate to help you get geared and prepared to afford loss for you? but thats only one person me? what about the others 10 / 20 or more who are left behind and are willing to make pvp also?

Imo, there should be an improvement made about the cost of pvp that should lower it and make it a lot more affordable lets say "cheaper" and enjoyable by everybody, dont make me wrong, i didnt say there shouldnt exist any risk in pvp but, not that much.

Like ppl love to say the fun ends where the farming begin.

An idea that come to my mind would be to remove "duras" or transform the way they work, for exemple by making them stackable until a certain point and more you got more your ship got bonus but even if its falling to 0 you wont loose your ship BUT you MAY have a chance to loose fully/partialy your fits (random) so that its lesser the loss.

This game is the best lets say sailing game? I've come accross but sadly there is no place for beginners to play it like it should and of course enjoy it. after all, this is a game! and a game should be fun, not an headache machine!

That was my 2c opinion.