Was Taelorn right all along?

[Garbad_the_Weak]

In late Beta, Taelorn said he wanted to remove all lineships and uberfrigates, as well as greatly toning down/eliminating all speed mods. He said he thought it would be better for balance, but people would revolt. At the time, most people criticized this, especially those who had never sailed with/against bundleboats (but who wanted to try them).

But now, when we note how much degenerate play and complaints revolve around speed imbalances and the necessity of being a speedboat on the OS and/or the OP nature/cost of lineships, was he right?

Should these be removed from the game?

[Halod Crane]

Originally Posted by Garbad_the_Weak

In late Beta, Taelorn said he wanted to remove all lineships and uberfrigates, as well as greatly toning down/eliminating all speed mods. He said he thought it would be better for balance, but people would revolt. At the time, most people criticized this, especially those who had never sailed with/against bundleboats (but who wanted to try them).

But now, when we note how much degenerate play and complaints revolve around speed imbalances and the necessity of being a speedboat on the OS and/or the OP nature/cost of lineships, was he right?

Should these be removed from the game?

Absolutely.
The 4th fell out of favor on the OS fast, which means frigate vs. frigate - which is fun.

Herc vs. Frigate isn't fun.
Watching people grind their time away, get what they want, use it to grind more and find themselves completely bored.... try pvp for the first time, lose all they've worked for and then quit.

Also not fun.

He was definately right all along.

[AbeLincoln1861]

No, he was incorrect.

I want varied gameplay. I want to see different ship types with different stats and capabilities.

The main issue is that Taelorn is responsible for ship-stat balancing and he has not kept a close eye on balancing. Cost versus benefit is still WAY out of whack. NO's bundleships are nerfed AFTER we have spent countless hours building them while PV and RAT ships are buffed in a reaction to a perception that there are too many bundleships.

As for speed, well, speed outfitting has always been overpowered when compared to other outfitting like turning or acceleration.

[Bit]

The problem I see is the 3rd-1st rates - maybe not the 3rd rates so much as I personally do not see the point. Those boats are so costly, and so powerful that they have to be used very situationally. Basically, you are putting all your eggs into the basket of hoping that with that kind of firepower you can win all the PB's you go into. However, as proven, they do not win a battle alone and tactics and teamwork make the real difference.

The grinding is boring, not rewarding for all and yes losing a point on my HH hurt this weekend. Not that it hurt my playability as it still has 5 points, but it hurt in that I will be less likely to take it on the OS without the perfect group setup. I like sailing that boat in 6v6 - it makes my toon capable of linefighting and holding it's own. The regular herc can do the job, but its not even close comparison wise to what I can do in the heavy.

I am not sure if they should be completely removed, cost lessened, or effectively nerfed into no one wanting to use them. The all powerful boat is not something anyone should have. I don't think it exists right now, but I think there is a surefire issue with some nations ability to grind cash faster than others due to these silly underdog tools, and equip their most capable captains with ultimate firepower.

I miss fighting Halod and crew though, that's for sure.

[Halod Crane]

Originally Posted by Bit

I miss fighting Halod and crew though, that's for sure.

I think we downgraded. The ships aren't much fun to use either, you win a lot but every win is tainted with 'well, we would have had to try to lose that fight.'

Not much fun in that, rather lose a good fight than win a boring one.

[Ed Anger]

Originally Posted by Garbad_the_Weak

In late Beta, Taelorn said he wanted to remove all lineships and uberfrigates, as well as greatly toning down/eliminating all speed mods. He said he thought it would be better for balance, but people would revolt. At the time, most people criticized this, especially those who had never sailed with/against bundleboats (but who wanted to try them).

But now, when we note how much degenerate play and complaints revolve around speed imbalances and the necessity of being a speedboat on the OS and/or the OP nature/cost of lineships, was he right?

Should these be removed from the game?

i agree, and think that the lineships should hae been added into the game months later, after balancing etc and new content. giving eve as an example, it was years before the capitols and supercaps came into the game.

[Leopold Ventrue]

Maybe if the bundleboats had more than 2 DP. Even if they had 3-4 DP they still take a ridiculous amount of time and money to make.

[elessaria]

I have mixed views; I believe the bundleboats should have been gated by nation, based on performance in PBs/RvR. Say, 5 1sts, 10 2nds, 20 3rds with a few Hercs thrown in, but make them a reward for *playing* the game. When you cross a threashold (30k conquest points, or 30 PB victories or 1000 MoVs; whatever) you get an "invite" to receive command of a writ-ship which you can accept or reject in hope of a higher command. They are then doled out from a waiting list based on who accepted which writ when, and as soon as one is sunk the next invite goes out. No arms race, no imbalance, everyone has a shot but you HAVE TO PLAY NOT PAY. In my eyes that is the only way such powerful ships could have worked in a fair manner without throwing balance to the winds.

Speed is a different problem. I like the diversity in the fitting industry because it allows second-guessing, planning etc. Skills are a real problem because they are not available to everyone. I would have halved all skill modifiers before launch and removed all group speed buffs. There is no way a group should be faster in either logical or gameplay terms.

[Alexande]

Originally Posted by Garbad_the_Weak

In late Beta, Taelorn said he wanted to remove all lineships and uberfrigates, as well as greatly toning down/eliminating all speed mods. He said he thought it would be better for balance, but people would revolt. At the time, most people criticized this, especially those who had never sailed with/against bundleboats (but who wanted to try them).

But now, when we note how much degenerate play and complaints revolve around speed imbalances and the necessity of being a speedboat on the OS and/or the OP nature/cost of lineships, was he right?

Should these be removed from the game?

Im not sure how the bundle boats affect this , they are expenive for a reason and they serve to pay off the hardest core players for their effort.

But he was definitely right that all the speed buffs and silly magic spells need to go and they need to go bad.

Imagine if you went up against a group, and those players had a variety of skills based on the realistic skills of naval tall ship combat? What if those players couldn't have every skill in equal measure, because each skill took a certain time to learn, and experience during each level had to be divided up between your skill trees rather then clicking the next skill icon?

1. Sailing, critical skills learned by years at the helm and knowledge of ones ship including navigation.

2. Crew, Crew health, Crew Morale. Crew Toughness and discipline

3. Gunnery, accuracy, and speed.

In that world, a 6 group of ships would be a lot less likely to have all the same skills maxed out and thus, the battle of calculators would be much harder for players to do. A player with max speed would not be as skilled in the other skills regardless of their "class" (In 1720 I believe there was only one class and it was called human).

yeah I know, thats crazy, a game where each individual had a totally individual level of skills. Nutso.

[Brei]

I've always supported having the Big SOLs in game. However I wanted it changed how they were obtained. I had pushed for a while to make captaining one a PvP reward. For example if you personaly grinded 3k on a port you got to captain a 3rd rate in the PB, 4K a 2nd, and 5k a 1st. This would make them the prop of the nation rather then the national, everyone could obtain it if they wanted, it would encourage people to spend more time in the Red, it would keep them out of the OS, and people wouldnt rage quit when they lost it.