Tiered PB PvP

[Capitán Franco]

I actually posted this earlier in what turned out to be a complain & rant thread, hopefully, it gets viewed here:

This has most likely been brought up at one point or another, and if it has, it needs to be reiterated. Why not implement tiered PvP which counts for something? By this I mean, why not have PB's of 24vs24 of levels (20-30); (30-40); (40-45); (45-50) or some sort of combination. However, also make them count. This allows more levels to enjoy PvP risk & reward on a more even playing field. It also means that your nation will need it's lowbies as much as it needs its hardcore gamers.

Just like with college grades, each of 5 tests account for 16% of the total score & the big/final grade is 20% or however your professor grades. Apply this analogy to the PB's, in that the (20-30) battle counts for 10% of the port victory, (30-40) counts for 20%, (40-45) counts for 30%, and (45-50) counts for 40%. This way the high end PvPers are NOT the make or break of the PB victory/loss. The algorithims can be jostled around and tweaked until it works, but I agree with the guys that are sick of grinding to the highest level just to do the "fun" stuff.

This is done to some degree in the BG's on WoW and I agreed with the guy that quit at level 20, because it was just all out grinding. I quit at 47!

This is my 2 cents.

[Kylia D]

Hi!
Though your idea does have merit, I would like to point out that levels in this game are not a big factor, it takes a measly 3-4 weeks to hit 50, PotBS was never a game that had a long leveling process, as such catering for end game content to non end game levels, would be IMO a waste of time. After all, everyone will be 50 sooner than later, but keeping end game content to the end game levels also promotes that they will be 50 sooner.

End game content, is exacly that, end game content. If you start changing end game content to gear towards leveling players, then you risk the factor that people who have gotten to 50, will leave.
And they are the ones you want to hold on to as far as a player base, if we talk money for a sec, a player who gets to lvl50 will have a larger chance of stability as far as a paying customer is concerned. Players who want more content without getting to the end game, are a higher risk factor in stability, as it shows that they haven't got the perseverance to hit the end game, and just want more content without the effort.

Please don't take this personaly, its just a known fact with gamers in MMO's. You want to market the MMO at the player that will stay with the game, bringing in the constant $$$, not the fly by and move onto the next MMO player that will just jump from one to the other trying to find awesome content without doing any work.

As I was once told by the deisgner of an old online game Forgotten World -
Reward the people who put the time and effort into the game, and more people will put time and effort into the game - Dan

[Garrett_In_Ohio]

Originally Posted by Kylia D

Hi!
Though your idea does have merit, I would like to point out that levels in this game are not a big factor, it takes a measly 3-4 weeks to hit 50, PotBS was never a game that had a long leveling process, as such catering for end game content to non end game levels, would be IMO a waste of time. After all, everyone will be 50 sooner than later, but keeping end game content to the end game levels also promotes that they will be 50 sooner.

3-4 weeks? I thought it was 3 days I've heard

The fact is, it takes 332,000 roughly XPs to get to Lvl 50.

So, say 4 weeks, this means 332,000/28 roughly 11800 XPs per DAY average.

The fastest way I could see doing this would be to sink a ship 10 levels higher than you to get like 300 XPs per kill. So that means 11800/300=40 kills a day. Assuming 8 hours a day playing that means 5 kills per hour. Not impossible. BUt significantly harder especially at the lower levels.

The reality is it can take twice as long as that, or even longer if you PvP/have a life.

[Kylia D]

It does depend on lifestyle, I know our fastest 50 on Invincible was 7.5 days, but the average is around the 3-4 weeks. That said even double that, were not looking at a long period of time, were looking at retaining perhaps a months subscription with perma-content geared at lower levels, the bucks are made with players that stay in the game, hence the people that take the time to get to 50.

Of course I havent even started to try to compare time to max level Vs other MMO's, might make a pretty graph but one cannot argue that PotBS is up there with the "easiest to max level" MMO's out there.

If it was a lenghty process to get to 50, I would be more for ideas such as these, but feel it would be better time spent working on more end game content, rather than mid game, since mid game is such a short time.

[CaptainKipper]

You're judging people by your own standards.

I had this game since the day it came out and have played most days (bar a weeks holiday), sometimes for longer periods than at other times owing to the fact that I have work/commuting to do, a house to look after and a social life to attend to. I hit level 40 last night.

Time aside, there's also a persons playing style to be taken into account. Some people are what I call "single minded grinding machines" - no problem with that, but from a personal point of view something is lost there, it would seem like the game isn't fun to these people, its work, nothing must distract them as they need to kill as much as they can as quick as they can to reach the end, so that they can do what... have fun? Do more grinding, only in PvP?

Personally speaking, I game for the sake of having fun along the way. I'm not racing to 50, (though maybe having a little competetiveness with the closest matched society members!) - i'm taking time when I log on to do some missions, do some killing with people, maybe stalk a circle or two looking for a fat foreign merchant, manage my economic structures (and do some hauling in stripped ships) as well as just good old chatting with the society, with the friends i've made in game, or chewing the fat on /nation. I've enjoyed the build up to where I am, and will be pleased with myself when I do hit 50 (as I am every time I qualify for the next ship / item I want to try out) but i'll honestly say i've had fun on the journey as well.

So yeah... you COULD get to 50 in, what was it, 7 days? Or you could do it over the 3 or 4 months that i've been doing it (as have others I know). Neither are right or wrong, but just know that there are lots of different ways/speeds to play a game like this.... and for some, its not all about reaching the end as quick as possible. For me, that way burnout lies.

[Kylia D]

Originally Posted by CaptainKipper

You're judging people by your own standards.

I had this game since the day it came out and have played most days (bar a weeks holiday), sometimes for longer periods than at other times owing to the fact that I have work/commuting to do, a house to look after and a social life to attend to. I hit level 40 last night.

Time aside, there's also a persons playing style to be taken into account. Some people are what I call "single minded grinding machines" - no problem with that, but from a personal point of view something is lost there, it would seem like the game isn't fun to these people, its work, nothing must distract them as they need to kill as much as they can as quick as they can to reach the end, so that they can do what... have fun? Do more grinding, only in PvP?

Personally speaking, I game for the sake of having fun along the way. I'm not racing to 50, (though maybe having a little competetiveness with the closest matched society members!) - i'm taking time when I log on to do some missions, do some killing with people, maybe stalk a circle or two looking for a fat foreign merchant, manage my economic structures (and do some hauling in stripped ships) as well as just good old chatting with the society, with the friends i've made in game, or chewing the fat on /nation. I've enjoyed the build up to where I am, and will be pleased with myself when I do hit 50 (as I am every time I qualify for the next ship / item I want to try out) but i'll honestly say i've had fun on the journey as well.

So yeah... you COULD get to 50 in, what was it, 7 days? Or you could do it over the 3 or 4 months that i've been doing it (as have others I know). Neither are right or wrong, but just know that there are lots of different ways/speeds to play a game like this.... and for some, its not all about reaching the end as quick as possible. For me, that way burnout lies.

Intresting, but believe me its not my standards I'm judging on (even if it was, this is an open forum, hence your standards in your post :P But I digress), I would still be 30 and happily stuck into the econ, if not for my soc members forcing me to level to 50. My reply comes from watching and participating in 12+ years of online gaming, More if you include the good ol' BBS Days (god I loved LORD!)

If you compare PotBS to many of the other MMO's in the past (and I can personaly compare it to more than a few), and as far as difficulty reaching end game, pirates is not a difficult one to hit.

MMO's though are tailored at two main aspects, leveling and end game. 95% of MMO's when they start do not have a large end game content. Lets use the evil WoW as an example, how long did it take to bring out the first 40 man raid instance MC? What did everyone end game do before that? 15 man Ubrs, and the like, they also made up thier own fun until end game content came out. Now what is WoW about? Endgame. Why? Because that is where the money is.

When Pirates has been out for a year, do you belive the majority of people will be levelers? or End gamers? (guess it depends on what FLS do) ;p

If we spend too much time on worrying about leveling content and not end game content you will create a cyclical player base, lots of new players, but people who get bored of the game at end game, and leaving. This is a non-sustainable model as far as online games go. Its been tried, and its failed many a time.

What does work? End game. Why? Because there needs to be something after you level. Leveling keeps you going till end game, what keeps you going after that?

I run a large soc, we promote lots of activities and comps for our lower members as well as our 50's, but when it comes to things like RvR, the lower members know, that when they get to the high levels they will get to join in. But adding in content that effects RvR for lower levels takes away from the end game content, it diminishes the worth of an end game PB.

When you take away from the end level players, you lose the player base that makes you the money, and without money you lose the ability to host, update, improve the game.

I've been a part of a few multiplayer games, helped develop 2, and have been a part of alot more, as my first post said, "the ideas have merit" but use your creativity on end game content. The OP has some great ideas, see if they can be moulded to better assist the game. And to better assist the game, we need end game content.

If you like to take your time, thats great, but while your taking your time, if the game does not contain enough content to keep people once you get to 50, then there is no game left

[CaptainKipper]

You're absolutely right that you need to keep the top tier players interested but I would have to argue that you need to bring in new blood every so often as well. A gripe I have is that I really haven't seen much advertising for this game (admittedly, I don't buy PC mags very often but I am online a lot) and so some people will never, ever discover it. Thats a shame.

I sometimes think about leveling an alternate character, I have a level 1 NO and FT ready to go, but i'm not sure I can be bothered (at the moment at least) to go through the tutorials (can skip the initial bit by logging and relogging, but you can't seem to avoid the econ tutorial and other mission based ones though I haven't given a lot of time over to trying) and then do the same missions i've already done. In that respect, you do need something for the non top tier avatars - whether they be new to the game or alt characters of experienced players.

I was under the impression that the real endgame was the RvR and port battle system, while there could be more options - this seems a lot more than other games give you. In WoW (never played it, so bear with) - you get to do raids. Different locations, different monsters, but still, essentially the same thing. In PoTBS, PBs are your raids - 24 man instances. What really sets them apart though is that they are against other players, AI is predictable if you study it long enough, humans never are, because they adapt much more quickly and freely to the situation they're in. So theoretically, PBs are always different. Yes - same locations, same 'monsters' - but different strategies each time as each side is loaded with different players, trying out different things.

All i'm trying to say is - yes, bring on the endgame content (which I myself will be ready for soon!) but at the same time, try to bring in fresh players and give them a good enough experience that a high percentage of those will stick around long enough to know what endgame is about.

I've been to one port battle - which is somewhat notorious for the fact I accidentally selected the wrong ship (stripped lexi, oops) - but even being there and getting a taster probably recharged my batteries and renewed my focus and gave me the reason I wanted to keep playing. Get lower players involved and they will stay longer. Shut them out and they will get fed up long before 50. (which granted, is quick in the MMO scale of things, but still not nescessarily that quick).

[Capitán Franco]

I fully understand the concept of keeping the "stable" customers involved and providing end game content to them. Currently, PB's are the ONLY end game content, but I've read the dev logs and see that there is so much more to come. As these new things are implemented, I don't understand why it is unfair to loosen the strings on the PB's and allow lowbies to play. If all I have to look forward to is grinding from 1 - 49 and then do PB's at 1AM once I hit 50, then that's not much to keep me going. There really needs to be something for lowbies to practice PvP and understand tactics instead of being scoffed at when they jump into a PB once they hit 50 not knowing what in the world is going on. I don't mean the skirmishes of 1v1, but that on the grand scale as a 24v24.

There are just as many casual gamers as there are hardcore gamers. I've been playing for about 5 weeks and am only level 30. I think the player run economy is awesome and I have a great deal of fun with that. The only other things to do are the port missions, which I don't even read anymore, I just accept, do them, turn them in and move to the next town. There are still quite a few bugs with the RP mission, but I really enjoy it when it works. I think in another 6 months things will be drastically different and will be so much more fun.

[Nebless Clen]

Originally Posted by Capitán Franco

Why not implement tiered PvP which counts for something?

This actually is being talked about in the "In Concept" forums. The dev's understand that the PB systems needs work and have kicked it up a notch from this forum to the "help us work on it" section. A) the dev's want a better invite system and B) alot of us would like to see the fun spread out more along the lines you've suggested.

Quote-Kylia D "If we spend too much time on worrying about leveling content and not end game content you will create a cyclical player base, lots of new players, but people who get bored of the game at end game, and leaving. This is a non-sustainable model as far as online games go. Its been tried, and its failed many a time."

First let me say that I'm more of a CaptainKipper style player than an end gamer and agree with almost all of his points in his post above this one.

I think you're right Captain Franco; there are a lot of casual players but because it's the hardcore one's that post alot, the casual players often times get overlooked. I've been playing since pre-board and am only a level 36. I do have an alt but like Captain Kipper pointed out re-doing missions is not a fun prospect.

Yes leveling here is fast, but unless you want to do the massive grind dance, it still takes abit and by doing that you miss out on a lot of the mission quest story arc's etc... which is what keeps some of the people interested.

As far as end game content goes and keeping the higher level players happy, I submit that your concept as quoted will cause a game to fail too. To support this I'll use Star Wars Galaxies as an example.

SWG was a game where by grinding one could level up pretty quickly. BUT once they had leveled up they quickly ran out of things to do. There was some high level stuff to do, but once they beat the system it was only useful as an additional grinding point for bring up the lower levels and now that they were maxed out, doing the lower level quests/missions was boring so SOE started blowing off fixing the various bugs etc... that affected the lower level stuff to develop more and more higher level content because as we all know "the squeaky wheel gets the grease".

Now as long as the high level content kept coming steady, the uber players were happy, but the new players had to put up with "not being part of the REAL game", a buggy system and unkept fix promises. As expected, they voted with their feet and left. Since any game needs more money coming in than going out to be sucessful, SWG was in trouble.

So much that SOE basically started another game SWG:NGE which was a very dumbed down version to attract a younger audience. Numbers did go up, but as you pointed out correctly alot of those players didn't stick around and SOE's business move drove off a number of older high level players as well.

SWG is now a wasteland, too many servers, not enough players, old structures cluttering up the landscape - blocking any new growth etc... and SOE doesn't know how to get out of the hole they dug.

I think part of it is just like Star Trek on TV. Everyone one loves ST/SWG so it must be sucessful, if we build it - they will come. Well it only took ST 5 TV shows to figure out they've been to the well too much. Who knows how long it will take SOE to stop dumping money into SWG:NGE. Probably a long time since it's not their only game and can limp along for a while since it is pulling in money and the cost can to spread out over their other games.

A game, THIS game needs both leveling content AND end game content or it will fail and since it's FLS ONLY game, do you really think they'll keep it going once the income becomes less than the running costs?

In one way or another the whole game needs to be accessible to all players. No one should have to treat the level 1 - 50 move as just an extended tutorial just to participate in the end game content. There are players that don't care about the end game content and may never do a PB, but will stick it out for the long haul anyway.

I think FLS knows this as I'm already seeing posts concerning rare loot drops that start higher level quests.

[szolty1]

Originally Posted by Capitán Franco

I actually posted this earlier in what turned out to be a complain & rant thread, hopefully, it gets viewed here:

This has most likely been brought up at one point or another, and if it has, it needs to be reiterated. Why not implement tiered PvP which counts for something? By this I mean, why not have PB's of 24vs24 of levels (20-30); (30-40); (40-45); (45-50) or some sort of combination. However, also make them count. This allows more levels to enjoy PvP risk & reward on a more even playing field. It also means that your nation will need it's lowbies as much as it needs its hardcore gamers.

Just like with college grades, each of 5 tests account for 16% of the total score & the big/final grade is 20% or however your professor grades. Apply this analogy to the PB's, in that the (20-30) battle counts for 10% of the port victory, (30-40) counts for 20%, (40-45) counts for 30%, and (45-50) counts for 40%. This way the high end PvPers are NOT the make or break of the PB victory/loss. The algorithims can be jostled around and tweaked until it works, but I agree with the guys that are sick of grinding to the highest level just to do the "fun" stuff.

This is done to some degree in the BG's on WoW and I agreed with the guy that quit at level 20, because it was just all out grinding. I quit at 47!

This is my 2 cents.

I think the idea of each level class counting for a portion of the victory will only result in the SOLs targeting the lower level ships in order to prevent them from achieving any points.

On the other hand, another possibility could be to reserve a certain portion of the invites for the different levels. Something along the lines of 14 of the 24 invites for level 45+, 5 for 35-44, and 5 for 34 and under (subject to tweaking). That way, if you try to exclude the lower levels from accepting invites, you end up with a max of 14 players in your PB. At the same time, if you are a lower level player that has earned an invite, you don't have to think or worry about if you are taking away an invite from a higher level player. If you decline, there is not a level 50 waiting for your slot.