What about removing red circles ?

[Nebless Clen]

How about to cut down the ganking they just change the range the attack button kicks you into an instance and do away with the various speed debuff's?

The attack button kicks in at what 4 miles? But your cannons can't even reach out to 1 mile. Make the attack button kick in at your cannons max range, THAT'S when the battle starts, not when you're kind of close and for the other group members that come piling into the fight instance ... have them spawn out at the edge of the local map. That first guy might catch me, but I'm going to run like mad if I see more sails coming over the horizon.

Which brings me to the debuff's. OK I have no problem with buff's. Maybe I know how to squeeze more speed out of my crew, sails or ship than you do. But honestly WTF is with debuff's? Some kind of magic powder I throw at you to slow you down?

The only real 2 debuff's would be my being in a bigger ship, getting close to you and positioning myself between the wind and you to "steal your wind" OR putting enough cannon holes in you to slow you down.

If you can't catch me, you can't kill me. Unfortunitly this whole SOL moving at warp speed stuff doesn't help. SOL = big, lot's of cannons AND SLOW! I can understand why the dev's screwed with the whole ship's speeds plan, but it's caused alot of problems. If they want to keep it for OS fine, but list a second speed for battle instances which is real. You want to try and catch me in that big lumbering SOL fine, knock yourself out.

[Garrett_In_Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nebless Clen

Which brings me to the debuff's. OK I have no problem with buff's. Maybe I know how to squeeze more speed out of my crew, sails or ship than you do. But honestly WTF is with debuff's? Some kind of magic powder I throw at you to slow you down?

The only real 2 debuff's would be my being in a bigger ship, getting close to you and positioning myself between the wind and you to "steal your wind" OR putting enough cannon holes in you to slow you down.

If you can't catch me, you can't kill me.

All good ideas. Buffs are one thing, but the debuffs, I got a real problem with that stuff. Pixie dust only happens in the movies but why do we have to tolerate it?

Just last night, 3 level 40-ish players in my society (I couldn't get in because someone else threw some sort of debuff which made me steer clear of the battle and into another encounter where I got slaughtered) encountered a lone lvl 50 in a hermes sleek which they were about to kill, then this 50 waves some magic wand and suddenly noone can maneuver, or fire or move, and the 50 runs away with with the whole /tiphat insult to boot.

[CaptainKipper]

/agree with the debuff thing.

I have no problem with a situational debuff if it makes sense... you can damage my rudder, but to do that, you'd have to shoot at me from behind, do a certain amount of damage, right?

You can foul my lines, but to do that, you have to actually be in contact with me - and it would foul yours too, so the ships were interlocked until someone could undo the mess.

Just dont like the idea that you can f*** me up from 250 yards away. That IS weird.

[MrOsterman]

Originally Posted by CaptainKipper

/agree with the debuff thing.

I have no problem with a situational debuff if it makes sense... you can damage my rudder, but to do that, you'd have to shoot at me from behind, do a certain amount of damage, right?

You can foul my lines, but to do that, you have to actually be in contact with me - and it would foul yours too, so the ships were interlocked until someone could undo the mess.

Just dont like the idea that you can f*** me up from 250 yards away. That IS weird.

So far as an NO I've found that every one of my "spells" makes relative logisticial sense.

Damage Rudder: Must be astern to use.

Rake Deck: Must be astern or off bow to use, in a sense getting the maximum length for your shot to have effect.

Disable Sails: Must be using sail damaging shot such as bar or chain.

Speed boosts: Coaxing my men to lay the sails in a novel and better way for this circumstance.

Precious few of my "spells" feel like they're just applied out of the blue.

Mr.O

[Nebless Clen]

Originally Posted by MrOsterman

So far as an NO I've found that every one of my "spells" makes relative logisticial sense. Mr.O

Yes the one's you've listed do make sense and I think we would all agree that those are what we'd call "buff's" as they are something YOU are doing to YOUR crew.

When I say "debuff's" I'm talking about:

Plague ship (pirate) - throws dead animals onto other ship from up to 100 yds away to sicken my crew. A) Good arm, I can get you a good sports contract. B) Instant sick, no incubation period. Hmmmm. and C) I work in an environment where people lose limbs and their heads from flying cannonballs and work through it, but lose my reason when someone throws a dead goat on the deck!

Break Morale (NO) / Terrorize (Priv) - I'm suppose to believe that just because your crew has jumped up onto the cannons and into the rigging and is making faces and yelling at me from up to 100yds? away that my crew will go into shock and not be able to function? Trust me, you jump up like that I'd call it grapeshot target time. Even if I could hear you over the cannons and being deaf, I'm loading, humping cannonballs etc.... and am totally fixed on serving the great mistress of battle; my cannon. I don't have time for sight seeing.

Run them down (Pirate) - slows the target ship. Pretty straight magic wand action.

Etc....

When we say debuff's we mean something YOU do that effects MY crew/ship. Yes it's a fine line and can't be blanket statemented when talking specific's, but in a general mode - Buff's = You, Debuffs = Me.

[Garrett_In_Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nebless Clen

Yes the one's you've listed do make sense and I think we would all agree that those are what we'd call "buff's" as they are something YOU are doing to YOUR crew.

When I say "debuff's" I'm talking about:

Plague ship (pirate) - throws dead animals onto other ship from up to 100 yds away to sicken my crew. A) Good arm, I can get you a good sports contract. B) Instant sick, no incubation period. Hmmmm. and C) I work in an environment where people lose limbs and their heads from flying cannonballs and work through it, but lose my reason when someone throws a dead goat on the deck!

Break Morale (NO) / Terrorize (Priv) - I'm suppose to believe that just because your crew has jumped up onto the cannons and into the rigging and is making faces and yelling at me from up to 100yds? away that my crew will go into shock and not be able to function? Trust me, you jump up like that I'd call it grapeshot target time. Even if I could hear you over the cannons and being deaf, I'm loading, humping cannonballs etc.... and am totally fixed on serving the great mistress of battle; my cannon. I don't have time for sight seeing.

Run them down (Pirate) - slows the target ship. Pretty straight magic wand action.

Etc....

When we say debuff's we mean something YOU do that effects MY crew/ship. Yes it's a fine line and can't be blanket statemented when talking specific's, but in a general mode - Buff's = You, Debuffs = Me.

ROTLMAO. God that's funny, and so true. I'll have to go through soe of the wacky skills. I do like the chicken/cow debuffs those are good. Demoralize with that funky picture of a ghost (I can't recall off hand what painting they stole that one from).

Pirates of the Caribbean movies are more believable than some of the debuffs in this game. Like the "To Mean to Die" buff (more like a debuff), basically making my ship immune to taking ANY damage from your. Who came up with that nonsense?

Get a load of some of these Privateer "skills":

http://potbsvault.ign.com/wiki/index...r_Skills_Guide

No wonder I can't beat a lvl 50 Privateer to save my life.

Let's take a look at a few good ones:


Terrorize Debuff 1 Reduces target's effective crew for a short time. Enemy
Range: 250y 1 minute 5 minutes 60 Damage Crew: 50% Increase Crew: 25%


50%???? What is this nonsense?


Break Formation Special 15 Sail into the middle of a group of enemies and disrupt their formation, causing all enemies in range to suffer a very short duration stun. All enemies 15 seconds 8 minutes - Stuns all enemies in range for 15 seconds


Um, so you click on this and you break the formation by "sailing into the middle of a group of enemies to break their formation". Um, I have a better idea, how about "sailing into the middle of a group of enemies to break their formation"! You mean you get to "sailing into the middle of a group of enemies to break their formation" without having to actually "sailing into the middle of a group of enemies to break their formation". No wonder we find ourselves dead in the water in all th etike against these guys, they are actually "sailing into the middle of a group of enemies to break their formation" without actually having to "sailing into the middle of a group of enemies to break their formation" causing us to stop what we are doing.

Oy vay.

[MrOsterman]

Originally Posted by Nebless Clen

Yes the one's you've listed do make sense and I think we would all agree that those are what we'd call "buff's" as they are something YOU are doing to YOUR crew.

I quoted three forms of attack actually that effect the OTHER crew. But okay.

Plague ship (pirate) - throws dead animals onto other ship from up to 100 yds away to sicken my crew. A) Good arm, I can get you a good sports contract. B) Instant sick, no incubation period. Hmmmm. and C) I work in an environment where people lose limbs and their heads from flying cannonballs and work through it, but lose my reason when someone throws a dead goat on the deck!

That one is a bit weak, I'll give you that. However never underestimate the role of superstition and the like. But yeah, weak.

Break Morale (NO) / Terrorize (Priv) - I'm suppose to believe that just because your crew has jumped up onto the cannons and into the rigging and is making faces and yelling at me from up to 100yds? away that my crew will go into shock and not be able to function?

That's because you don't want to be bothered by it.

A reality of naval combat in the 17-19th centuries was the discipline and focus of the crew was not 100 set in stone garunteed. You might WANT to believe that your gunners are died in the wool follow orders kinds of sailors but not all of them were. In fact only the best ships had crews that worked free of distraction and could not have their morale shaken.

So how's this work? Some form of intangible event that breaks their morale.

In real navy combat, recieving a completely uniform broadside might have the required effect to shake up a crew and slow them down. You only need a few people out of position in a crowded gun deck and that'll screw up your reload rate. Seeing a ship pull along side and seeing 40 marines in the tops all crisply excuting their manual of arms, then cracking off a tight volley RIght At You might shake your morale more than a full broadside will, or at least lead you to duck a bit. Or maybe a marine sniper just shot the 2nd mate through the head? That'd make me pause.

And while snipers and marine gunners in the tops were part of the naval vessels of the day they are conspiciously absent here.

Run them down (Pirate) - slows the target ship. Pretty straight magic wand action.

Okay... a bit weak but it's all relative. Call it that your crew is simply coaxing more speed out of your sails then the other guys.

The reality is that there a many many untangibles in naval combat which are very hard to work into a video game, and even an MMO, but are part of the history and part of the lore. As such they worked into the game as events we can activate when we chose them, rather than being tied to them happening entirely at random.

Perhaps all manner of thigns such as shaken moral, shot officers, fouled rigging, bad salt pork, wet powder etc should be factored in. Maybe they should have a few dozen characterisitcs for your crew to keep track of and manage.

I actually kinda prefer the "spells" approach.

Mr. O

[Nebless Clen]

Originally Posted by Nebless Clen

When we say debuff's we mean something YOU do that effects MY crew/ship. Yes it's a fine line and can't be blanket statemented when talking specific's, but in a general mode - Buff's = You, Debuffs = Me.

Mr O, that's the problem with talking buffs/debuffs. Yes, yours listed were buffs/debuffs but we're generalizing with the term buffs. Your action, on your crew is causing an adverse affect on my ship crew. With the rudder we're talking better powder, aiming, taking your time to shoot etc...

For Debuff's we'll use the "run them down" example. Your actions on your crew here would only cause YOU to go faster, not slow ME down. Thats how I'm looking at the buff/debuff definition.

For the terrorize ones. If we're talking pirates vs smaller merchants than I'd say yes. But there's too many examples of crews fighting through that kind of stuff; Nelson is shot at the Nile. John P Jones and the Bonammie Richard sinking under him and still fighting, The Gu...... shooting at the Constitution and not damaging the hull. If anything would break someone's morale it would be that on the British side yet they kept fighting.

I'm not talking dyed in the wool follow orders type, but morale is totally different than discipline. A military or quasi-military crew was trained over and over and over and disciplined. They might not be a happy ship (morale) but they could do their jobs. Remember the British Navy pretty much relied on pressed men to man their ships throughout the 1800's. If anyone had a better reason to not fight well it would have to be those sailors and yet, time and time again those same sailors did above and beyond type work. Also as one that has been in various fight situations before; the tunnel vision kicks in at times and you lose awareness of what's going on around you.

Yes they have to abstract it for the game, but some of them are pretty out to lunch.

[Rueven54]

Piggy-backing off of what was said by Nebless Clen, Speed debuffs are teh worst of the debuffs. They don't make sense unless we say that I am upwind and, therefore, stealing/blocking wind from someone who is downwind. This would be another situational thing, but the ingame skill is not. You also mentioned that the speed was relative. Relative to what? Your scenario almost made sense. You were impleying that my crew, in being the chaser, is utilizing the wind more effeciently. Thus, We were catching up. This once again would be a speed buff on me and should be represented "In-Game" accordingly. However, being that this is represented "In-Game" as a debufff in lue of a buff, the speed would be relative to everyone in the battle. This would mean that you are also outpacing the other members of squadron because you, and only you, are using the wind in the manner you described. It would be a skill that you actively choose for your crew to pursue, not anyone elses crew. Maybey you are automagically augmenting the speed of your groups, too?

What Clen is so elegantly trying to explain is that "De-Buffs" do not make sense in this game without explaining it away with magic (or source code). If you want to represent something in game, choose a way to represent it that is proportional to real life, not contradicting it!

As for the original purpose of this post, I believe I like the ingame mechanics system as is. The game as a whole does require balancing and end-game content to be added, though. I personally have been ganked several times. I have never had the opputunity to gank. I do not believe I ever would like to sink someone who obviously would like to avoid being sunk. I would recommend anyone who goes into the red carrying cargo that is obviously going to loose to just hit the PVP surrender button and hope for the best. Because of diplomacy requirements, the gankers can never know what your true intentions are. In this way, you will atleast avoid being sunk by those that wish to blockaid a port. They will have no reason to sink you what-so-ever. If you are still sunk after fullfulling these requirements, try filling a complaint against that greifing squad stating that they sank you after surrenduring. I realize this stuff has happened before, but we now have a policy that, imo, explicitly forbids this kind of behaviour (ie: Blocking access to portions of the game world normally accessable). It is possible I am wrong in this. I do not work for FLS, but I believe one can safely say that if you followed the steps above, the gank squad is clearly greifing at this point! The only reason they have for sinking you is to rob you of your ship and force you to buy/build/steal another. However, by you signaling that your ships wellbeing outweighed your need/deisre to fight, any attempt of them to deprive you of it is, imo, greifing. I realize freetraders can smuggle cargo, but how much money did they loose by surrendering? Did you still cause the nation economic trouble by forcing the FT to surrender? This all goes into showng mutual respect for each player playing the game.

My Main Characters are...

1.) Sanitos Pontedera of Spain (PT35) -Antigua
2.) Nicolas Pontedera of Spain (NO32) -Antigua
3.) Damion Umbridge of the Brethren of the Coast (PR42) - Rackham

So if you are ever attacked by group of people and one of these characters are in group...Surrender if you fear that we will sink you, otherwise, bring it! I would hope that others return the curtesy.

[FlaSeaDog]

I can see a few good ideas here and I’m not sure what the solution is but something needs to be done about the ganking. Half of my society quit because of it. I am all for PvP, but, the current system isn’t working. More people will leave this game because of being ganked then will because they aren’t allow to gank people anymore. PvP rocks...Ganking doesn’t.
I can see how the gankers would defend the consensual PvP debate but I fail to see how the Devs cannot see that PvP is not consensual in this game (they are fans of City of Heroes..a game in which PvP is consensual) . If they can stop the ganking there are enough people here, who like this game enough, and, the concept of the game is so cool that this game could realy "take-off". But , I believe, FLS needs to make both the hardcore PvPers happy and the casual PvE/PvP people happy... So far they are doing a great job for the gankers. I hope FLS can fix it quickly cause I'd like to see this game around for a long time.