Reworking Battle sails?

[Rousseau]

There has to be some way of sinking obscenely tanked ships.

[keline]

Originally Posted by Rousseau

There has to be some way of sinking obscenely tanked ships.

Stern shots?
And would you call a Mercy an "obscenely tanked ship"?

How about a couronne, that one lasts even longer and does not suffer from the same issue because of Expert sailmaster.
Are you a Freetrader?

[Chawar]

That´s because it has less firepower than an Alexander, if it wasn´t "obscenely tanked" it would be absolutely crappy for combat and not worthy the 8 LSB it costs (well it is not worthy now...)

[keline]

So you think a Freetrader should easily stay in combat forever while a NO simply drops dead after 10 minutes because he's demasted from roundshot?

Ah yeah you're a freetrader. I see.

[Taelorn]

I keep a list of features I want to improve ship combat. Changing the way battle sails work is one of the items on that list. Most likely, it’d change to become completely flexible so that I could make battle sails alter ship performance any way I wanted (resistance instead of defense, or some combination, better turn rates, accuracy – anything). I can't commit to a specific time line, but I'll keep you updated on the progress.

[Marion vanGhent]

Just to chime in from a strictly historical perspective (and with no comment on the gameplay mechanics of battle sails, which needn't be strictly historical):

Furling the courses (lowest "tier" of sails) on a ship did very little to protect the rigging from damage during battle, much less the masts themselves. For starters, a sail could function reasonably well even with holes in it (at least when not sailing close-hauled or "against the wind"). But more importantly, all the rigging that supports the masts and sails and lets them be maneuvered attaches somewhere to the hull or decks. A shot that takes out a stay (fore-and-aft supporting rope) or a few shrouds (side-to-side supporting ropes) would be far, far more damaging than a mere hole punched through a sail. These ropes are in place -- and in peril -- no matter what sails are furled or deployed.

The main purposes for using battle sails were to:

* Reduce the amount of debris falling to the deck during a battle -- debris which could easily catch fire if it landed in the wrong spot. Fire was a constant danger as ships were practically floating tinder-boxes, and seamen did everything in their power to minimise the risk of it -- even sacrificing speed for a small benefit in safety. This is the #1 reason for battle sails forwarded by most history books.

* Allow more efficient crew use and easier ship handling: the more sails deployed, the more crewmembers needed to adjust their position in order to maneuver the ship. The more crew busy with the rigging, the fewer available to man the guns or repel boarding attempts.

* Minimise differences in speed between ships sailing in formation, making it easier for a fleet to do battle as a unit.

* Lastly, ease the wind pressure on the rigging to help prevent spontaneous, critical failure of an entire mast if important ropes are carried away.

So while preventing some sails from getting damaged definitely played some role in the decision to "go to battle sails," that role was exceedingly minor in actual ship combat of the era. Ships were regularly dismasted and left dead in the water, even with courses furled -- while only rarely would they sink or explode from their wounds. That's what history has told us for several centuries.

Again, the above is nothing more than a history lesson. Whether getting demasted makes for good gameplay is an entirely different question, and I'd encourage anyone interested to discuss it on those terms.

[keline]

M are you trying to tell us you're sacrificing gameplay for historical reasons here?

[Marion vanGhent]

Originally Posted by keline

M are you trying to tell us you're sacrificing gameplay for historical reasons here?

Absolutely not -- I'm not commenting on gameplay at all I'm simply pointing out, for those interested, that history tells us something very different from:

Originally Posted by keline

As for realism, defense is only realistic when the masts are actually being targeted by dismantling shot. However, battle sails not doing anything when round shot hits the hull of the ship is not realistic at all because when I have the lowest set of sails furled, they can't take damage (and they are after all the most likely sails to take damage from round shot.)

Practical experimentation tells us something different as well. I know there's a video of a heavy gun (or was it a carronade?) firing into a replica 18th-century ship's side, staged on land. Unfortunately I can't look it up right now, but it's very dramatic and shows explicitly how dangerous round shot was to rigging -- even when the hull was the target.

All of this is a separate issue from gameplay, on which again I have no comment

[keline]

so you're saying battle sails not having ANY effect whatsoever is 100% realistic?

[Tresmett]

Originally Posted by keline

so you're saying battle sails not having ANY effect whatsoever is 100% realistic?

They do make a difference, but you have to account for the sheer number of incoming rounds in game. This only applies to PvP, but the rigging taking damage from all modes of fire is not only accurate but beneficial.

Take a 6V6 battle assuming Hercules Frigates gun decks for one side only. 12 18LB guns on a side for a total of a 72 gun line. That kind of directed firepower in a line battle either in group or Port battle makes this a little moot. We have to consider the fact that battle sails works on the premise of being a means of controlling the engagement while affording limited maneuverability it allows the line to concentrate more fire and at a higher accuracy thus increasing offensive effectiveness.

The damage racked up on the target ship will be devastating, stays and shrouds blasted from their moorings on the decks components usually the railings which will also suffer harshly in a straight up brawling match.

Don't you think it makes sense that these incoming rounds would glance off or perhaps directly strike masts and rigging gear? Even worse if we were allowed the use of Hot Shot and new circumstances broke out like fires and powder magazine explosions lol. It's a stretch and lord knows we don't need anymore ways to lose ships, but it would be fun.