Free traders -what is the point?

[UlteriorModem]

Originally Posted by CaptainDartwick If they have an anti-bot measure that bans people who arent using bots - why is that good?

Wow going off on the same topic (which btw has nothing to do with the original intent of the thread) in yet another thread.

Agin Ive only seen one person maybe two but the second was a different case complaining about this.

If it was a frequent problem the forums would be filled with topics on it.

Im not saying your having a problem Dart, Im just saying it seems as if your the only one with the problem.

[Greyed]

Originally Posted by Thygrrr I have PR, NO and FT characters. I arbitrage a crapload on the Auction Houses, I go through orders at very high speeds, I have my set price search patterns that I frequently repeat, some of them slowly inching up a single doubloon at a time.

And sometimes Celeste just elbows Grey and says, "Make me mo' Oak!"

[Yawntastic]

I have my production at Turtling Bay, I want to craft a ship, I cannot produce everything myself, I have to buy from various AH's around the carribean, some of which are in PvP, some of which are as far away as Les Hattes (Im Brit).

So, I craft what I can, but then have to spend about 6 hours (at least) trauling the seas collecting up all these materials, with a possibility that unless I drop off everything at a non PVP port (that i have a warehouse at) before I venture into the PVP port, I lose it all and have to start again. FLS want MORE PvP ports in the game, therefore eventually I will have many items on AHs that I need to visit to collect, and likely the port that I build in it too.

What do Freetraders get to combat/help this? A 15 second immunity to combat skill (which most pew pew FT's dont take - i know coz all i hear on the server is them whining about "OMG PR is in PVP") - and even if they DO have the skill, WTH is 15 seconds gonna do when you are stuck in a massive galleon with the accelleration of a turtle on dry land?

I see people in this thread replying to the OP talking about FT's "combat buffs and abilities". But hey - I didn't roll a FT so I can pew pew - I rolled FT because I am a crafter and a trader. But, if being a crafter and a trader involves spending all day in open sea and never hardly crafting then what is the point?!?

Then you add in the fact (and i dont care about this time factor") that pretty much any claass in the game can do exactly the same job (except haul 1400+ items at the same time - wow!) as a Freetrader when it comes to crafting, then really - it's a waste of time.

I recently joined a Society that has a level 5 freetrader alt as THEIR MAIN SHIP BUILDER because his main is a NO - and they all get by fine - what a joke!! Cool - let a level 5 freetrader build SOL's - bad joke.

A freetrader on my server recently said in the trade channel "I dont use advanced structures anyway, most, if not all ports with rivers are almost always in PVP that economically it's not worth trying to get the goods in and out of the ports, and besides, with the profits people make on these things, what's the point, i may aswell just pay the extra 5% profit the guy is making and buy them on the AH, the market is flooded with everything coz of the other non-FT's crafting it all". So, in short, the advanced structures are pretty much a waste of space anyway.

How to fix this in this game? You can't, and therefore it is probably doomed to failure for those who enjoy playing MMO's like this to play the market and craft. I have absolutely no idea what you guys did in beta, but from what I can see all you had in beta was the usual "pew pew" players who for the majority, didn't give a damn about the crafting side of things.

Crafters and traders are for the whole (speaking about the majority who probably dont even read forums) carebears, they play for the PVE and try to avoid PVP at any cost - usually because this disrupts the way they play and the risk is too much for the loss for them. Misdirection and Give the Slip are pretty much bad jokes as skills - if you are at a port and want to get out you have no possibility against enemies that have the slightest bit of brainpower - heck even those that don't! If you wish to reply to this post claiming that this game is for hardcore PVPers and that carebear crafters shouldn't play it - then fine, don't bother, because the server select screen already proves the case against it, live and provide for the carebears or MMO's die - always been the way.

This game - as you can see already on the server list, is losing players on every server. People who really want 100% PVP will disagree with what I am saying, but you show me an MMO that survived efficiently without a decent PvE aspect and i'll consider your case. Mixing the two as PotBS does - especially for FT's is a really bad idea. PvPers would easily survive in the game without looting from FT's sunken vessels, and who cares if a Freetrader can get in and out of ports without risk? Big deal - give us a level 50 skill at the end of a skill tree that gives us better protection as we haul the seas all day and maybe it'll be a more viable prospect. This game has enough potential to create changes to the PVP mechanics of where and how PVP is established - having it solely forced upon players in red zones isn't the way to go if you want this game to survive.

I once read a dev saying something like "This is the way it is, there is no crying in the red zones", well fine, but when the red zone for you becomes the SOE Boss's office and he's asking you why the game isn't making money due to players leaving, then we'll see who is doing the crying.

[beltpouch]

Originally Posted by Yawntastic Crafters and traders are for the whole (speaking about the majority who probably dont even read forums) carebears, they play for the PVE and try to avoid PVP at any cost

That is where this game is a bit different from other MMOs out there. The economy in this game IS PvP, it is not PvE.

PvE stands for player vs. the environment. How is the economy PvE? There are not any NPC competitors trying to undercut you. There is no danger from NPCs while hauling cargo as you can just sail away from any NPC engagement with no risk at all. In short there really is no PvE in production in this game what so ever as there is no "vs. Environment" component to production.

The "v" in PvE stand for versus. The definition of versus is "in opposition or hostility to". What exactly is the environment doing that is hostile to the economy? Absolutely nothing as far as I can tell. Therefore there is no PvE element to the economy in this game.

PvP stands for player vs. player. The economy is very much PvP. When you produce items you are competing against other PLAYER merchants who will try and undercut you. When you haul cargo their are PvP zones where PLAYERS will try to apply economic warfare (i.e. piracty and/or commerce raiding) against you. The materials you make have a high likely hood of ending up being used in PvP battles against your enemies by other PLAYERS.

In short the economy in this game is ALL about PvP not PvE. This is obviously a very different mechanic from other MMOs out there (except maybe Eve) and obviously won't appeal to all players. But there are plenty of players who really enjoy how all the elements of this game fit together and how really exciting it all can be. Just my humble opinion.

[Deckeon]

Originally Posted by beltpouch That is where this game is a bit different from other MMOs out there. The economy in this game IS PvP, it is not PvE. PvE stands for player vs. the environment. How is the economy PvE? There are not and NPC competitors trying to undercut you. There is no danger from NPCs while hauling cargo as you can just sail away from any NPC engagement with no risk at all. In short there really is no PvE in production in this game what so ever. PvP stands for player vs. player. The economy is very much PvP. When you product items you are competing against other merchants who will try and undercut you. When you haul cargo their are PvP zones where players will try to apply economic warfare (i.e. piracty and/or commerce raiding) against you. The materials you make have a high likely hood of ending up being used in PvP battles against your enemies. In short the economy in this game is ALL about PvP no PvE. This is obviously a very different mechanic from other MMOs out there (except maybe Eve) and obviously won't appeal to all players. But there are plenty of players who really enjoy how all the elements of this game fit together and really exciting it all can be. Just my humble opinion.

Good point and trying to change the fact that PvP rules economy, at this late hour, would really make the game stink, for everyone.

[Yawntastic]

The problem is, i agree with most of what's said in the last 2 posts. The trouble is, there simply aren't enough players playing the game on all sides in any single server to make a PvP only run economy viable. Yes, it is different from other MMO's (mostly) in the fact that the game is almost entirely PvP driven, but show me another game out there that survived doing this? Why is it that so many of this game's servers are underpopulated? Why are so many players (and i use "so many" loosely) screaming out for server merges when the game is so young? Why is it that no server ever gets past "heavy" - and why is it that on almost no occasion in the past couple of weeks has any server that i've seen had "Heavy" population on more than just the British faction?

The answer - no MMO has and ever will survive when the gameplay and all of it's outcomes are solely based upon it's PvP content, especially when the PvP has it's own flaws in the first place. You can dissect the meaning of PvE all you want, but I'm sure most people know what I mean, if I have to change to using the term "non PvP" instead of PvE, then so be it. Most MMO crafters/traders do not like forced PvP without at least having a way of avioding it (especially the more casual types with limited time, or even skills at fighting), yet any MMO out there relies on them to a point. Don't base your opinions on the fact that you are in the main, a PvPer, and if that's all you can do, then don't reply in a "Freetraders, whats the point" thread.

Whether or not making big changes would make the game stink - you and I both know that this game is not surviving as it should be, and unless it begins to cater cleverly towards both types of players, it wont survive to make it interesting enough for the PvPers who already play it - due to lack of opposition (which there already is if you are on a Brit faction populated server already - which is all of them).

[beltpouch]

Originally Posted by Yawntastic but show me another game out there that survived doing this?

POTBS is pretty unique in this regard but Eve Online has a similiar set up and is doing quite well from what I here.

Originally Posted by Yawntastic Why is it that so many of this game's servers are underpopulated? Why are so many players (and i use "so many" loosely) screaming out for server merges when the game is so young? Why is it that no server ever gets past "heavy" - and why is it that on almost no occasion in the past couple of weeks has any server that i've seen had "Heavy" population on more than just the British faction?

Because FLS started out with more servers than they really needed. Tis a problem but not an insurmountable one I would think.

Originally Posted by Yawntastic Don't base your opinions on the fact that you are in the main, a PvPer, and if that's all you can do, then don't reply in a "Freetraders, whats the point" thread.

I'm a freetrader at heart and usually play a crafter type in these sorts of games. There are issues with the freetrader class that make me have no interest in playing one in POTBS but those issues have nothing to do with PvP zones and are really another discussion all together. If you are interested in my opinions about what the freetrader class should be I would refer you to a previous post I made. Here is a link:
http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16991

[Yawntastic]

I read your post about FT class - so now maybe you can understand why FT is a waste of time when you weigh in the risk of PVP versus anything viable as a FT. If you are going to make PVP so prominent in a game like this - then fine, but why waste so much time as a FT when your efforts in gathering items for crafting can be done pretty much equally by any other class in the game? Therefore, if FLS do not wish to change this - don't force PVP upon the FT class. Not only is it a waste of time, but any level 10 Freetrader can already do as good as I can at level 50 in the class.

As you stated there, you were in closed beta - you had the advantage of seeing the faults of being a Freetrader before release - I too always play a crafting type in the MMO's I have played in - when I looked at this game the crafting side of it really appealed to me. I got in, levelled my FT to 50 just to feel screwed over by how totaly generic my character feels against other classes when it comes to crafting - so much to the point that it is making me want to give up on the game.

I have never played an MMO that I haven't given at least six months of my time to it due to "giving it a chance coz its new" yet this is the first one I am considering giving up on, after just 6 or so weeks. I was a crafter of over 2.5 years in SWG, played WOW for 2 years, and LOTRO for just over 6 months so I have experience and can usually spot flaws in games easily enough, and I usually contribute positively to help bring them to people's minds. I just feel so badly done by with the FT class in this game that for the first time ever, I can't see how it can be fixed without creating massive changes to either the class, other classes, or the game's mechanics towards FTs'. Something which I cannot see FLS doing any of.

[beltpouch]

Originally Posted by Yawntastic I read your post about FT class - so now maybe you can understand why FT is a waste of time when you weigh in the risk of PVP versus anything viable as a FT. If you are going to make PVP so prominent in a game like this - then fine, but why waste so much time as a FT when your efforts in gathering items for crafting can be done pretty much equally by any other class in the game? Therefore, if FLS do not wish to change this - don't force PVP upon the FT class. Not only is it a waste of time, but any level 10 Freetrader can already do as good as I can at level 50 in the class.

Well I would agree with you that there are some issues with the freetrader class (as I said in my other thread). However you don't fix the "broken" freetrader class by going out and breaking the PvP system so they both were "broken".

You seem to feel that the freetrader class really has no special place of importance in the game and that is an issue with the class, not with the PvP system. By all means I would like to see some changes that made the freetrader class a more unique playing experience :-)

[Yawntastic]

M8, the points you brought up in your other post were points from when - the closed beta? It is not the first time I have read people suggesting the same things you have - regarding making Freetrader class more viable - especially when it comes to limiting what non-FT can make. We are now what, 2 months and more into live - and how many of your changes have been considered or have been taken on board already? If they don't want to implement improvements for the class - then where else do people have to look to make changes other than to make changes to the way the class interacts with PVP?