The Shape of PvP to Come

[Crimson Phoenix]

Once again. It isn't trolling to agree with what the dev's are doing. This was a devlog. They asked for discussion.

FLS really should consider what a bunch of garbage these boards have become where agreeing with the direction they are going with the game is considered trolling. Then FLS needs to recognize that these are the same people they are changing the game to please?

Get a clue FLS. They will never be pleased. You are losing all of the good people in this game to a group of people that will leave you (if they haven't already) as quick as they left the messes they created on their own servers before quitting to Antigua.

Look at what the new people are seeing when they come here. All that advertising money being spent to get people into the game, just so that when they decide to say something good they too can be called a troll. Or wonder if they wasted $40 bucks on your game? http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38568

Wake up and start protecting your game FLS. I used to say nice things, but since the Antiquans quite clearly proved you only react when the insult reaches a certain level, I thought I'd join them.

These boards were seriously the very best in all of MMO gaming. Have some pride in your game for once, FLS. Stand up for it on these forums and quit letting the few people left who stand up for you become the trolls.. There used to be a day FLS would have their supporters back. Now I wonder if they aren't the ones handing out the knives.

[Spinnaker Sam]

Originally Posted by Sally Sue The wind gauge should not be an issue as it would be hard for reenforcements to know the actuall placements of the forces inside the battle. They could themselves join heading away from the wind but for all they would know that could place them in a position to have to sail into the wind to make a stright line to the battle

This would be mitigated by being able to pop into the instance and see where the ships are and which direction the wind was blowing. If you know who is in the battle you could also ask them about the conditions. The downside to popping in for a look is that once you leave you can't come back. Regardless, there is no danger to popping into an instance just to see what is going on.

I was thinking it might be better to not have them marked.

Most players would quickly remember where the spawn points are at whether they are marked or not, so they might as well mark them just to make it fair to everyone. There still is a bit of unpredictability since you don't know which of the two spawn points a ship might appear in.

[TheRooster]

Earlier I suggested that the respawn points not be marked, but I don't think that would solve much. Yes you wouldn't be sure if the respawn points were 135 degrees to the right or left of your target, but that's it. The bigger problem is that reinforcements can choose when and if to lose their invulnerability.

I had suggested a 45 second forced timer for action, but now I think that might pose problems with ships maneuvering to their sterns while they are frozen. Instead I would like to see them able to move, but be invulnerable to fire and unable to do anything but maneuver. No actions, no skills, no firing, only sailing. I wonder if this is relatively easy to code. Well shoot, it must not be too tough because "last resort speed" allows you to sail but not do anything else.

[Sally Sue]

Originally Posted by TheRooster Earlier I suggested that the respawn points not be marked, but I don't think that would solve much. Yes you wouldn't be sure if the respawn points were 135 degrees to the right or left of your target, but that's it. The bigger problem is that reinforcements can choose when and if to lose their invulnerability. I had suggested a 45 second forced timer for action, but now I think that might pose problems with ships maneuvering to their sterns while they are frozen. Instead I would like to see them able to move, but be invulnerable to fire and unable to do anything but maneuver. No actions, no skills, no firing, only sailing. I wonder if this is relatively easy to code. Well shoot, it must not be too tough because "last resort speed" allows you to sail but not do anything else.

I thought there was a forced 45 second timer when they pop in and the devs said that those inside could manuver to set up an attack against them

[ArmEagle]

Originally Posted by Sally Sue I thought there was a forced 45 second timer when they pop in and the devs said that those inside could manuver to set up an attack against them

Edit: oops. not true.. : http://www.burningsea.com/forums/sho...&postcount=767 that's it though.

[TheRooster]

Originally Posted by Sally Sue I thought there was a forced 45 second timer when they pop in and the devs said that those inside could manuver to set up an attack against them

From what Snap said, there is an initial 45 second freeze timer, but that's not for the reinforcements. The reinforcements have 45 seconds to decide if they want to stay in the battle, but at any time they can commit to the battle and start fighting. So they can commit after 1 second, or after 45 seconds. Totally up to them.

I haven't been able to find a battle to reinforce yet on TestBed so I don't know for certain though.

[Spinnaker Sam]

The reinforcements do get 45 seconds to scope out the battle. If they see a ship maneuvering to an unfavorable position or camped on the spawn point they always have the option of exiting the battle immediately. Then I am pretty sure if they exit they cannot re enter. Forcing reinforcements to withdraw by guarding the spawn points is one of the tactics the devs have specifically indicated as valid.

Having them be able to maneuver under invulnerability could cause problems since there would be times they could actually ram an enemy ship and put it at a stop or even close to boarding distance or an advantageous position without fear of damage. Couple 45 seconds with the 30 second invulnerability skills and fast ships can close alot of distance if the battle is close to a spawn point.

[Undrsiege]

Originally Posted by Snap That's what Testbed is for -- a chance to test theories and see which ones are supported by what happens in practice.

All Class have All skills [Quick Fix]
Martial Law Bug [1 whole Milestone Patch]
Pirates Exploit of Abandon Bug. [1 Whole Milestone Patch]
Dauntless Frigates Un-Tradeable [1 Whole Milestone Patch]

The Proof of Testbed FAILures

Do what you do but : "No crying in the fail line"

[perih]

Originally Posted by TheRooster Wow. At first I thought, "Huh, interesting." Now I'm really liking it. People are complaining that one you start a fight, there will be an endless stream of players coming in to reinforce. That may or may not be true, but there is a tactic that can help. Have extra players surrounding the battle to keep reinforcements from reaching the battle marker! You can have 1v1, but you will need friends to keep reinforcements at bay. People who complain about the fact that defenders can get 4 extra players into a battle, why would you EVER send more that one additional ship into a battle than the defenders have? Leave the extra player(s) outside the battle to provide cover! I also love the idea of a huge ultra-long battle where there are 100s of ships sunk! Talk about a way to really drive the economy! Woot! Better stock up with tons of ammo and consumables! Think about how a defending nation can defend a port now! They fight, if they die they can respawn nice and close where the attacking nation will respawn further away. This might make people want to crawl across the map taking ports as they go instead of jumping all over the place. The tactical and strategical repercussions of this change are huge and I welcome them with open arms! Good job FLS! Now fix dirty fighting!

I would only like to add an idea: I think the outnumbering slots for the defending party should be proportional to the initial outnumbering of the attacking party and not a fixed number. I would wont fall in the trap to try to sugest any given starting number or what should be the formula for this. But i think the a simple direct proportion could be a good point to start a discussion on this:

say:
6 guys attack 1 then the defender gets 5 extra lots (or 4)
5 guys attack 2 then the defender gets 4 extra lots (or 3)

3 guys attack 2 then defender gets 1 extra slot (or none), etc...

(im really not sure if these should be the numbers. they are just an ilustration to the proportionality idea)

[STUPID MONKEY]

Ok a few notes,

1 : 10V6, I can see the thought process, stop poeple from ganking, however by doing this, you will encourge revese ganking, so your not really solving the problem, just creating a new one.

2 : If 4 small ships attack one big one, the big ship cna had 9 more big ships join in. In your mechnics you shouldnt just consider just the number of ships, you sould also account for the size and class of ships. Lets face it, you sometimes need a couple extra ships to kill the larger ships.

3 : Limited reinformecments, on many of your servers some nations only have 10 level 50 guys on at any given time. By allowing unlimited reinfocements to both sides, you will bascially allow one nation to completly destry another nation by sheer volume. Again, this points out that sometimes a solution to one problem causes more problems.

My suggestion,

1 : The 10v6 six / force multiplier, not a good idea, leave the battle open, but dont open the door to revese ganking. Allow an equal number of reinfocements to each side.

2 : Battle open, you should extend the period that it can remain open, however it should not remain open for an indefinite period of time. Again, smaller / less populated nations will be at a greater dis advantage.

3 : Dedicated PVP zone, why dont you set up a dedicated PVP area, you have lots of open sea, leave it red all the time and allow guys to do battles in fixed groups, ie 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, etc etc Or just make it like the ship duel option, but allow more than one ship and have it mean something, ie you can lose your ships just like in the red zone. A lot of people just want to pvp and they want to fight .

4 : More ships, this game was set up kind of realistaclly, ie the nationals have more powerful and more plentiful larger ships. I dont recall pirates ever doing a line battle ever . If you do make these change you will bascially not make this a pirate game , you will need to make pirates a nation, allow them to caputre ports and keep them, allow them to make larger more powerful ships, etc.etc... Again, by attempting to solve one problem, ie ganking, you are creating a new one. Because the pirate,s while yes they cna capture ships, cannot make the larger ones veyr easily. Also, with the unlimited reinforcments how can a pirate ever capture a larger ship. He cant, becuase he'll capture that big ship and have no mods no uprgades, and 10 new guys can jump in and kill him. Then you'll have a bunch of poeple complaning, then you'll have to do another upgrade, then you'll go to far with that one, then have to compensate, etc.etc.etc... You see what happens. Just do some twekas here and there


Bascially, PVP is RTS in a role playing game. And I have played RTS for a long time. I have also seen RTS games go south fast when they try to change things around too much. My suggestion, think very carefully about what you are doing and dont cause more problems by attemtping to fix one problem, ie ganking. My soulution, setup a dedicated pvp area where players cna choose the battle sizesand allow the battle to stay open longer but not indefinantly.

One final note,

THE EASIEST SOLUTION TO GANKING : All of these changes are proposed because of ganking. WIth a few lines of code you can fix it right now. If 6 guys attakc 1 dont give any MOV or MOTS, thats it. You will reduce ganking right there Dont rework the entire game because of 1 little problem. Popele bascially gank because they want MOVS and MOTS, just change the amount you get based on the battle, ie 1v1 you get 8 of each 2v1, yu get 6 of each, 3v1, you get 3, 4v1 your get none. And if you want to get fancy account for the ship types in the battle, ie 4 level 30's taks on 2 level 50's, etc.etc.