Build 1.13 and Hauling : I hope a considerable Hold increase is coming...

[Tanhouser]

The point of this game is having ships on the sea, as targets for PVP and NPC pirates. It's part of the adventure of this adventure game.

Larger production + smaller holds = more trips needed = more ships at sea.

It means that if you want to produce more... more merchant shipping is needed. That's how it should be.

I don't like that they increased the hold sizes at all.

No one is loosing anything, by not increasing hold size, you can still produce the same amount with the same amount of hauling as before the change. But now you have the option of producing more by hauling more, i. e. making more trips.

[AurianDeVeto]

Very simple proposal:

No Risk no Fun:

A Ship that is voluntary PvP flagged, can carry double the amont of cargo.

Interesting? I think: Yes

[valkiria]

Originally Posted by Khayr_Ad_Din hmm yes that is pretty lame. Where are these proposed changes located anyway? I can't find them. Or is this just in response to that guy above? edit: response to below. THX.

Release Notes for Testbed build 1.13.23.0

http://support.flyinglab.com/cgi-bin...i=&p_topview=1

[valkiria]

Originally Posted by Tanhouser The point of this game is having ships on the sea, as targets for PVP and NPC pirates. It's part of the adventure of this adventure game. Larger production + smaller holds = more trips needed = more ships at sea.

What for ??
I mean, if I sit my ship and look at how many ships go back and forth between Sisal and Havana does it really matter if I see 5, 20 or 200 ?

If you meant ships getting into the red zone, well, than we could have ships with a hold as small as 10 tons and players would STILL make their hauling when Ports are free of a red zone.

Why ? Because the design has made it for their hunters, way, way too easy to catch haulers so it is simply not worth the hassle to even think of attempting hauling in a red zone.

You want to see more haulers in the red zone ? Well, the way I see it making hauling a pain is not the right way, but giving haulers a REAL chance to run free instead would be, IMHO.

If haulers perceive that on the large Galleons they STILL can break free then they WILL take their risks and try it sometimes to Haul in red zones, but as of now ? No way.
A hauler entering a red zone is a sure loss and noone likes losing a lot of hours of worth and worth of doubloobs easy like that.

It means that if you want to produce more... more merchant shipping is needed. That's how it should be. I don't like that they increased the hold sizes at all. No one is loosing anything, by not increasing hold size, you can still produce the same amount with the same amount of hauling as before the change. But now you have the option of producing more by hauling more, i. e. making more trips.

Hallo ?
They made labour and buildings changes (and still are with the assembly building and advanced textile Mill) to precisely increase production.
But increased production to be delivered as a change NEEDS also increased hauling.

How much sense does it make to "potentiually" increase production capabilities but then limit with Ships' Holds capacities not adequate to the new needs ?

If the goal of the changes is to produce more stuff then, IMHO, this increased capacity NEEDS to get along with ALSO an increased capacity to MOVE these goods around to where they are needed.

[Havohej]

Originally Posted by valkiria The proposed changes with the upcoming patch will increase the Leviathan Hold of 60% (from 2,250 to 3,600) while the San mateo Trader's Hold will only increase of a 25% (from 2,400 to 3,000) which many see as still inadequate for current hauling needs aside from much less than the leviathan increase. If the Leviathan got a 60% increase then the San Mateo should at least get a 70%-80% increase to a Hold Capacity of like 4,500+, IMHO.

SMT is WAY faster than a Leviathan? Check.

Leviathan in the red is more at risk than SMT? Check.

Top-shelf cargo capacity has an associated risk? Check.

Everything seems okay to me.

Originally Posted by valkiria But increased production to be delivered as a change NEEDS also increased hauling.

If you don't want to haul it, enlist friends or sell the excess on the AH for a profit. I doubt you'll ever see them admit to it in a red-name post, but I get the distinct feeling FLS is trying to FORCE the players to use their in-game systems as they were intended to be used (that is, no 100% closed-loop society production, people putting materials on the open auction house market instead). I say good for FLS!

[AlphaMcHelm]

If anyone remembers, they did this before when they introduced the Leviathon.

At first introduction:
SMT: 2200
Lev: 2500

We argued for ages, and we finally got our final numbers:
SMT: 2400
Lev: 2250


Here are the ship basics as I see them:
Couronne: Huge hold, but third largest because it has a true combat ability.
San Mateo Trader's: Supposedly the all around best hauler in the game. Has the ability to defend itself against NPC's properly, halfway decent speed/accel for it's size, and the largest hold.
Leviathon: The Poor Man's alternative to the SMT. Not nearly as much hold space, poor speed, poor accel, colossal outfittings are all penalties for the expense difference of over 600k between them.

[valkiria]

Originally Posted by AurianDeVeto Very simple proposal: No Risk no Fun: A Ship that is voluntary PvP flagged, can carry double the amont of cargo. Interesting? I think: Yes

It would be a change hardly used by anyone, I think.

Why would anyone want to carry more load only being sure that they CAN be caught and easily boarded or sunk ? A hauler has NO PROTECTION against most threats out there.

I am a heavy duty hauler and this would just makes no sense to me.

People WORK for their stuff and spend TIME on creating it and losing it like that on the Open Sea is no fun at all.

This would be a change hardly anyone would use.

[Havohej]

Originally Posted by Alpha352 Here are the ship basics as I see them: Couronne: Huge hold, but third largest because it has a true combat ability. San Mateo Trader's: Supposedly the all around best hauler in the game. Has the ability to defend itself against NPC's properly, halfway decent speed/accel for it's size, and the largest hold. Fast enough with FT skills to escape most PvP situations before they begin. Leviathon: The Poor Man's alternative to the SMT. MORE hold space because with its poor speed and poor accel it CAN'T escape most PvP situations before OR after they begin - thus, risk is rewarded with additional cargo capacity. That combined with colossal outfittings are all penalties for the expense difference of over 600k between them.

I agree, mostly. I just had to make some minor edits (in bold).

[valkiria]

Originally Posted by Havohej Top-shelf cargo capacity has an associated risk? Check.

What risk ???
That of getting stopped by NPCs every other mile while getting to one's own destination ?

Give me a break.
I do not know of ANYONE who would ever even think of running a Leviathan in a red zone and neither a San Mateo Trader's for that matter.

There is no risk sailing either one if one stays the hell away from red zones, ONLY increased annoyances and tediousness from having to haul the Open Sea over and over and over and over, endlessly.

The slower the ship the more the trip takes and the more NPCs stop a ship.

A Leviathan is only good on short ranges like Sisal-Campeche for example but on long range it makes no sense to use it.

If you don't want to haul it, enlist friends or sell the excess on the AH for a profit. I doubt you'll ever see them admit to it in a red-name post, but I get the distinct feeling FLS is trying to FORCE the players to use their in-game systems as they were intended to be used (that is, no 100% closed-loop society production, people putting materials on the open auction house market instead). I say good for FLS!

LOL..... if you look at my posting history going back months I have been against closed loop society economies forever but this is not the way to do it, IMHO.

The only realistic way to kill closed loop Society economy is making it IMPOSSIBLE to have players to players trades. Certainly, among members of the same society.

You want stuff to surface on the Auction House ?

Easy, just make all items or at least most items related to some types of production NOT TRADEABLE but enlistable on the Auction house and voila, problem solved.

All players would then HAVE TO use the Auction House for all of their buying and selling needs.

[Tanhouser]

Originally Posted by valkiria What for ?? I mean, if I sit my ship and look at how many ships go back and forth between Sisal and Havana does it really matter if I see 5, 20 or 200 ? If you meant ships getting into the red zone, well, than we could have ships with a hold as small as 10 tons and players would STILL make their hauling when Ports are free of a red zone. Why ? Because the design has made it for their hunters, way, way too easy to catch haulers so it is simply not worth the hassle to even think of attempting hauling in a red zone. You want to see more haulers in the red zone ? Well, the way I see it making hauling a pain is not the right way, but giving haulers a REAL chance to run free instead would be, IMHO. If haulers perceive that on the large Galleons they STILL can break free then they WILL take their risks and try it sometimes to Haul in red zones, but as of now ? No way. A hauler entering a red zone is a sure loss and noone likes losing a lot of hours of worth and worth of doubloobs easy like that. Hallo ? They made labour and buildings changes (and still are with the assembly building and advanced textile Mill) to precisely increase production. But increased production to be delivered as a change NEEDS also increased hauling. How much sense does it make to "potentiually" increase production capabilities but then limit with Ships' Holds capacities not adequate to the new needs ? If the goal of the changes is to produce more stuff then, IMHO, this increased capacity NEEDS to get along with ALSO an increased capacity to MOVE these goods around to where they are needed.

I simply disagree.
I don't think that this change was just to increase production of finished products. I think they had the intention of removing labor hours as the factor that limits the economy. By doubling the labor, without doubling the hauling, they did that without players loosing much. You can STILL produce as much as before, and you can produce more with extra effort.

- When Money supply in total limits the economy, it means someone who wants to play econ can do nothing but go and fight to get DB to be able to do what they want to do... the economy.
- When Labor supply limits the economy, there is nothing you can do because you are just unable to produce any more.
- When hauling limits the economy, you as a player can take action... go get another load of raw materials. Or buy raws in the port you are in if you don't want to haul. It is putting our limits on something inside of our control.

Increasing hauling to match the increased output means that we will be back where we were, but with more stuff.