Round Table: PvP Cargo

[Fodderboy]

What is a "Round Table" thread?

A Round Table thread is slightly different from other official threads on the Pirates of the Burning Sea forums. They are designed to be a way for us to talk over ideas in a very directed way with you, our players.

Each round table discussion will be open for one week. At the end of the week it will be locked, and then a few days later we'll kick off the next discussion. We might re-visit some topics down the road as things evolve.

Each thread has its own topic. The topic will revolve around either a change we are in the process of planning (i.e. it hasn’t been implemented yet) or a subject that is clearly in the community's mind as reflected in feedback gathered during the previous week.

Round Table threads will be moderated slightly more than normal threads, as we don't want to get off topic. Our aim is to have useful conversations with our players as we work to improve the game.

Disclaimer: Ideas discussed in Round Table threads, even ones we express interest in, may very well never end up in the game.

Round Table 4: PvP Cargo

PvP cargo is a concept we’ve been discussing internally and we feel it has reached a point where it might make a good topic for discussion as the subject of a round table. Though we have not decided if this is something we actually want to implement in PotBS it is definitely something we have considered and wanted to find out what you the players think of the concept.

The concept of PvP cargo is that certain types of cargo are of higher intrinsic value than others in the overall scheme of RvR and that the carrying of these cargoes should require cargo haulers to be PvP flagged while transporting them. If line ship bundles or certain ship deeds were considered PvP cargo any ship hauling these items would be PvP flagged as long as their ship contained the PvP cargo regardless of where the ship was located on the open sea.

Clearly this kind of addition/change to the game would have a very large effect on the economy, PvP, RvR and the game experience itself for almost every player. This type of change does not come without some negatives for every positive perceived.

For example some positives might be:

-Increased PvP on the open sea outside the red circles and more PvP in general.
-Increased strategic elements in RvR as logistical lines of nations would be more vulnerable.
-Increased clarity regarding which ships were actually hauling RvR valuable cargo and which were not. No more guessing if that new player was carrying a valuable ship deed or cargo.

And some negatives:

-Players not interested in PvP are presented with difficult choices when engaging in the game economy. This could lead to player retention issues if the list of PvP cargoes is extensive making PvP a larger part of the game economy than it currently is.
-Population differences between nations could create major problems for smaller population nations. In an extreme scenario smaller population nations could have their economies effectively shut down.
-Cross teaming and other exploitive behaviors may be amplified.

What I’d like to see as the focus of the discussion regarding this subject is the following:

1. Do you think PvP cargo is a desirable modification to the game or not and why?

2. What kind of cargo do you think should be PvP cargo if the idea was implemented and why?

3. How would you address the issues presented by those on the opposite side of the discussion?

As usual I look forward to your responses and please do your best to keep the discussion civil. I understand this can be a very passionate subject but hope that everyone will do their best to keep these round table discussions productive.

[Kivek]

i dont think something like ship deeds would work, they dont weigh much so anyone who felt unsafe would just use an uncatchable ship. another issue is i guess most people dont transport lsbs but transport the goods. the only time i can think of needing to transport is when taking 1 to the capital for refit or taking it from the capital from cocs.

the only item i can see this really being any use for is unrest bundles, its really the item that effects RvR the most and it obviously requires hauling

[zuhl72]

Honestly, while intriguing, I think it's a bad idea.

From a personal stand point I would lurk about deep harbor ports, capitol ports and ports getting flipped and watch for people flagged and gank for profit. A group with a tackler and 5 friends would make econ ports the new redzones.

[DeadPirate]

I should be 100% in favor of something like this, but I'm not.

In my experience, in this game, PvPers are not great Econ players and Econ players are not great PvPers. There may be a few exceptions.

I think you could lose all the Econ players here. Forever.

Is this some sort of modification of that old "reverse red-zone" suggestion?

Anyway, I agree with the other guy that this would be acceptable for "Unrest Supplies".

But seriously - you want an Econ player to get ganked and lose his LSBs? That's an instant Rage Quit.

[elessaria]

I think its a good idea, but I think the examples you use are bad. The economy is, compared to other games, relatively simplistic and uninteresting already. Apart from choosing which recipe button you click you cannot affect what is produced in any real way and that means your economy already has limited interest for the MMO economy stereotype. If you force them to be PvP-flagged in order to make and transport high-end goods in, let's face it, inferior combat ships, you will risk alienating the few who actually do play the game.

I do think it's an interesting idea for the people who actively PvP/RvR though. For a long time people have suggested raising contention for fleeting in the red etc; how about a general cannon mod that is slightly better than Proto 3 by say 1% damage and 1 accuracy, but flags you and increases loot/contention by 15%?

Another area I think could be interesting is unrest bundles as PvP cargo. And as I said in an earlier thread, the possibility of packing black and green fish into crates that are PvP cargo that can be traded in other Areas for blue fish so the lower level fish actually become useful and maybe generate a bit more PvP?

[CompassRose]

1. Do you think PvP cargo is a desirable modification to the game or not and why?

I think it's a good idea so long as you select the right materials that qualify as 'PvP Cargo'.

2. What kind of cargo do you think should be PvP cargo if the idea was implemented and why?

Unrest bundles, definitely agree with that.
LSBs
Ship deeds above certain levels.

3. How would you address the issues presented by those on the opposite side of the discussion?

If unrest bundles are flagged as PvP cargo it will affect the casual, econ player that makes a living selling these off of the auction house. I understand this will apply to a small minority of players but it is a consideration.

LSBs are a good idea but I don't see too many instances outside of getting them from your capitol to a DNH that would require you them to haul them around the OS.

What I wouldn't want to see is LSB MATERIAL being flagged (like brass ship fittings). I think that would give Britain an unfair advantage given the distance between Charlestown and St. Johns. Given the right wind, you can make it from port to port before prep ship expires. Not so with sailing from a river port to a DNH for Spain. Even France has a relatively short hop if they use Roseau and FdF.

If you are doing away with the civilian ship deed trader I would put a level limit on flagging low level ship deeds such as bermuda sloops. No need to flag a BTS hauling those types of deeds around for the specific purpose of stocking newbie ports. I think that's going a little too far.

I don't think the game every reached it's goal of getting the player base interested in protecting haulers. It was too easy to avoid getting tagged in a hauler using the FT skills combined with neutral NPCs on the OS / port hopping. I rarely, if ever see a hauler with escorts in tow.

More than a PvP cargo flag, there should be a daily mission available at all ports. It should be a group mission that an FT can share. If your cargo hold is carrying something of a certain value (metal ore, manufactured goods, etc) and you must travel more than 300 miles then you and your escorts can turn it in for some reward.

I know I'm being vague here but what I'm getting at is making haulers more vunerable on the OS without giving the community a reason to protect them is bound to be a tricky proposition. Think about it. Discuss more and throw more ideas out there.

[Pir ate]

I think the only goods that this would be a good idea for a certainty is Unrest Bundles.

Combined with not being able to trade them it would actually create a risk for them. At the moment you can just sail a San Matty with several hours of bundles before there is even a red zone.

For it to be worth it I think the weight of Unrest Bundles would need to be increased to 100 or even 150. At 50 weight each a Traders Snow can still carry 7 bundles. Using 2 ships you can bring 59 bundles using a San Matty to a nearby port that is not surrounded by enemy players and then take the bundles in with a Traders Snow or BTS. It would not take that long and would be well worth it to take out the risk.

There is one other area of goods that I think could work, but would not be well received by some non PvP/RvR players. I think we can say that we have established that there is very little transporting of LSBs. What there is transporting of though are ship components such as Masts, Cannons, Frames etc etc. These are often transported from River ports.

My only concern with this is that it does create a significant disadvantage for Spain. You may or may not be aware, but in the case of Spain both DNHs do not have a nearby port with a River. For both Havana and Domingo the sail is a few hundred miles to Gibara and Plata. The French and British however have DNHs in the Lower Antilles where there are ports with Rivers right next to them and attacking people is next to impossible due to the proximity of all the ports. In fact the French have 2 DNHs with River ports so close you can make it to the DNH while under prep ship (Jaq > Leo jump and FdF).

[PaulG]

I don't believe any cargo should flag you for PvP. PvP is always better when its consentual. Forcing players to be flagged to carry goods in haulers, many of which can not defend themselves, would just encourage even more pointless ganking.

If players want to PvP outside of the red they can already, by flagging themselves.

There are plenty of players who play your game that never want to PvP, please do not drive further players away.

[Remus]

A very strong No this is not a good idea from me.

Even unrest bundles, now that you seem bent on them not being tradeable, will need to be hauled by econ-biased players; isn't hauing through the red risk enough? For those who haul unrest bundles before the bubble forms, well their being able to haul in safety is the reward for their foresight.

For ship deeds I imagine you are thinking of those needed to make writ and refit ships, well, the top end ones at any rate. The refit ship deeds themselves (except the Bahamut) are already secured cargo so it would be daft to PvP flag ships for carrying a cargo they could not actually lose.
The base deeds do need to be hauled to nation capitals but as others have pointed out, this is easy to do in a BTS, Fallen, Halifax MC or similar.
Why should the player who hauls a deed be flagged rather than the player who launches it? And no, I don't think that would be a good idea either.

And which goods were you thinking of flagging? In terms of value per unit weight, excluding ships, ammo, consumables and outfittings, the top 10 in order is (base price inc 5% tax and base structure cost):

Lineship Structure Bundle	1,278
Ship Fittings, Brass		1,171
Cannon, Huge			  758
Wine, Fine			  744
Ingot, Brass			  571
Cannon, Large			  328
Small Arms			  280
Cannon, Small			  279
Cannon, Medium			  278
Cheese, Fine			  275

Is Fine Wine of 'higher intrinsic value than others in the overall scheme of RvR'? Well, no.

The whole argument of 'No more guessing if that new player was carrying a valuable ship deed or cargo' has been discussed and discredited on here many times before. Deeds are easy to transport, and far safer on a smuggling-specced level 50 FT in their stealth Motor Torpedo Boat than given to a level 5 in a Otter Skuda (Fallback). For the other high value goods, lower level players simply do not have access to ships with high enough haulage capacity.

What surprises me most about this thread is that you have made no mention of what to me would be one of the most persuasive arguments in favour of PvP-flagging, that of making it harder for econ players to sell valuable goods to the enemy.
Take LSBs, for example (and really, it is the only example unless you were going to flag hulls and rigs as well). If they are being made on the same nation as the ships they go into then generally this will be in the same port and, except for CofC turn-ins, most LSB hauls are due to trading between nations.
I mention this argument only to wreck it, as those CofC exceptions are important, and I myself have hauled LSBs from TB to SJ in the past. But the bigger objection is that you can make it difficult to haul LSBs (as if the hauling weight isn't difficult enough), but this does nothing to stop the bigger 'problem' (if it is a problem) of trading the ship deeds themselves between nations.

[Kivek]

im liking the idea of unrest bundles being pvp cargo more and more. its an RvR activity and imo should have more risk involved. it would also bring some different ships in to play. atm most FTs use either a levi or san mateo traders for huge cargo or high OS speed. although a FT who has the OS skills is pretty much impossible to catch on the OS these 2 ships are susceptible to being caught in battle if they do get caught because of there low accel.

by making unrest bundles a PvP activity and perhaps making them heavier ( 100 each or something) this gives FT a tougher decision and more choices. do they use a combat ship like the monty, monarch or khan and bring 10-15 bundles and go drop them with a PvP group ready to blockade. do they go for the slower but higher accel cargo ships like the sultan or mignone to try and sneak in a dozen bundles or do they risk the big *** levi or san mateo and bring in 30+ bundles