Improving the Economy

[Remus]

Originally Posted by Georgiana Jennings I don't think having to run econ to afford goods is a good idea. Firstly, it's forcing players to do what they don't enjoy. This being a game, the principle of having to work for something isn't really viable--putting in effort is one thing, but too much unenjoyable effort and people will quit. The effort itself has to be enjoyable on some level, not just the reward. Secondly, at the end of the day, if people are going to be selling raw materials and purchasing finished goods, it makes the most sense for them to do so in a close loop economy, again sidelining the AH.

There used to be no need for people to do what they don't enjoy - well not so as to take up much playing time. You could make enough money making leather or sailcloth or something like that - single port activities, sold in that port's AH - to enable you to afford to buy AH ships, outfittings and consumables. And I have very little time for people who have a means of making money open to them for so little effort and who refuse to take advantage of it 'because they don't enjoy it'.

Nor do I hold that closed loop econ 'makes more sense'. As you point out yourself, closed loop econ favours the person who sinks a lot, primarily over the people who do the hauling. All very well if they are same people, but so often they are not.

[Georgiana Jennings]

Originally Posted by Remus There used to be no need for people to do what they don't enjoy - well not so as to take up much playing time. You could make enough money making leather or sailcloth or something like that - single port activities, sold in that port's AH - to enable you to afford to buy AH ships, outfittings and consumables. And I have very little time for people who have a means of making money open to them for so little effort and who refuse to take advantage of it 'because they don't enjoy it'.

No, I won't argue that it's unreasonable to expect people to just click and list, you're right. Fundamentally it's not very different from the proposal of allowing people to let out their slots.

Nor do I hold that closed loop econ 'makes more sense'.

Well, if people are just making raw resources and don't want the hassle of selling them themselves, it makes sense to find a steady buyer. People who have no interest in econ will always find it much more reassuring to be regularly selling to the same person for a fixed price.

Once you start setting up this type of relations though you rapidly slip into a closed loop. Not necessarily on the same terms as now--quite possibly allowing more profits--but it still short circuits the AH. The AH is inherently less interesting when buying raw (and intermediate) materials than for the finished products, because the consumption of materials is predictable and regular, whereas losses in PvP aren't predictable nor regular over the short term at least.

The inherent advantage of the AH is convenience--specifically because of the overall scale of trade, in theory the open market should have what you need when you need it (at least in trade hubs). However, when you can predict exactly what you need and when you need it, that advantage is largely irrelevant.

Of course, as you noted, F2P really makes this moot. Anything that can be produced with minimal hassle and no hauling is either handled by an established society loop, or by low level alts.

[Nestcrow]

Well, the decisions you have to make in a blind system and an open system as a seller are really the same. I have to say I've come to like it and would find it a bit to formulaic to see "ok, 1db less than this price and I'm first, that means my profit is exactly ...". Ofc I don't know what people do after I set up my listing in both systems, so you'll rely on AH records and gut feeling in both system but to a different extent.
In the blind system there is an equilibrium between undercutting or not and checking prices.
If noone undercuts it's pointless to check prices, but if everyone thinks checking prices is pointless it is very profitable to undercut (get all sales with full price). And then someone checks and price swings happen.
In the open system an equilibrium exists purely based on prices - if I see list price is 100db profit undercutting by 1db is a no brainer, if list price is 4db profit that's much different - and supply/demand. What's better in general I don't know.
I'd be afraid that people would just spam cheap listings (given the high oversupply) and then there'd be little room left to go both up and down. Though, maybe that's beneficial. I don't play other MMOs so that's pure theorizing.

If the blind AH is kept there's one problem I'd like to see fixed, though - listings/buy orders stacking. Say I need 1000 iron ingots. Sisal 170 db, La Isla 150 db. So, order 1000 at La Isla for 150db ... not enough to fulfill. Now what do I do? Might be that there's 600 for 150 and 400 for 220 - not a good deal. Or it's 600 for 150 and 400 for 180. I have no way to know before actually buying. Add a checkbox to the buy message, "confirm before buying". If this is checked, it doesn't buy right away but says:
your offer 1000 for 180 was succesful. Buy? Yes. No.
Same thing can be done for buy orders with the caveat that I can offer without having the goods (can only press no then).

About limiting eco possibilities for spammed accounts: How about tying it to character activity? If he hauls, PvEs or PvPs regularily he's free to run recipes, if not not. I can't really see levels as a realistic fix.

[Fodderboy]

It’s time to close this round table so we may move on to our next discussion which will be found on the Ships, Ship Combat and Ship Skills board. I’d like to thank everyone who participated in this discussion as the information gathered, whether in agreement or dissent is always helpful to the development staff as we plan for the future of the game.

In closing I would like to offer the following comments:

We intend to continue adjusting the sources of doubloons entering the economy at their sources – not make adjustments based on the overall amount of doubloons in the economy. Our concern is not that there are billions of doubloons in the economy overall but the rate at which an individual player can accumulate them from sources such as missions, fleets or loot drops over time. That rate of doubloon gain from sources other than other players are FLS’s primary adjustment points for doubloons entering the economy. Where we feel the rate of gain is too fast we will continue to make adjustments over time.

Most of the other ideas/concepts discussed in this thread at this point are food for thought. Some represent things we would like to address (e.g. blind auctions, penalties/restrictions on cross nation trading) but require further investigation and/or code modifications before anything can be implemented, if they can be implemented at all. Some we know we can implement (e.g. recipe level restrictions) but need to wait until they can be part of a larger milestone plan because of the volume of changes and tuning required needs to be accommodated. All are going to have to wait until sometime after the 2.8 build as there simply isn’t enough time left in 2.8’s development for any of these to make the next live push. We will update the community if/when any of these changes are planning to be implemented and most likely enter into another round table to discuss the particulars of their implementation at that time.