Bring Back 2nd Rates!

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by ARobertsFrenchie Your point being what, exactly?

dont bring a privateer indianman to a pb

[CaptBarbossa93]

1st/2nd rates are not overpowered when it comes to damage. These ships should do this much damage. Look at this video and pretend you was the target in a frigate in reality, what do you think would happen after one broadside?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0KE-Vo0I0E&t=2m30s

So, they are not OP. End of story.

However, the problem is the games accuracy system. Rates being able to spike other ships in one broadside at 600-650 yards (~600 meters) isn't realistic.

All different cannon calibers have different accuracy. It shouldn't be like this. In reality, the accuracy was depending on the gunners, the different calibers just provided longer range and more damage due to larger and heavier cannonballs.

Todays system uses the cannons max range in the calculation, which is wrong. How long a cannon reach does not decide the chance to hit a target. Let's compare a 40lb with a 10lb cannon:

40lb cannon
Range: 650 yards (594.36 meters)

10lb cannon
Range: 540 yards (493.78 meters)

Let's place our target 500 yards away with the current system. The 40lb cannon will have a better chance to hit then the 10lb cannon. That is wrong.

Let's place our target 500 yards away with my idea. The 40lb cannon will have the same chance to hit as a the 10lb cannon, however, if the 40lb hit it will do more damage.

The basic accuracy should be counted like this:
(1 - ([distance_to_target] / 700 yards)) * 100 = Accuracy in %
Then of course, ship speed, size, outfitting etc should increase/decrease accuracy as normal.

700 yards as that was the closes rounded up number from the heaviest cannon in the game. One more example with this system:

10lb cannon
Target distance: 500 yards
Accuracy: 29%

40lb cannon
Target distance: 500 yards
Accuracy: 29%

10lb cannon
Target distance: 600 yards
Accuracy: 14% (cant fire, out of range)

40lb cannon
Target distance: 500 yards
Accuracy: 14%

10lb cannon
Target distance: 200 yards
Accuracy: 71%

40lb cannon
Target distance: 200 yards
Accuracy: 71%

What do you think?

[C G Wrangel]

Well, if you want to go realistic, I'm not sure you're right.
(I'm assuming this since rates aren't OP because they were just that powerful, totally ignoring wheter or not they're OP in the game).

When it comes to caliber on cannons, it's a measure of the weight of the projectile it can launch, and it's pretty logical, 20lb's shoot 20lb projectiles, 40lb's fires a projectile of 40lb.

When it comes to spheres though, what actually makes count when it comes to accuracy, it's how soon the projectile will start rotating around its on axis, something that every spheric projectile do. If I recall correct (I might be wrong though, was ages ago I studied math), the larger the mass of the sphere, the longer it takes until it starts rotating around its own axis. When rotation around the axis starts to occur, I think the terminology for it is picking up torque, the projectile starts to deviate from its trajectory, the direction depends on in wich direction the projectile starts to spin.
In 18th century warfare, this manifested itself as musketeer bullets (who was spheric) after a certain distance went all over the place, left, right, up, down, so an estimated amount of hits could be expected at various distances. For Cannons on the battlefield, this was a bit different, I suppose because their projectiles were heavier.

To sum it up, I think the developers have done it right if heavier caliber cannons have better accuracy, since the deviation of the projectiles should be less the higher the mass of said projectile.

[CaptBarbossa93]

Originally Posted by C G Wrangel Well, if you want to go realistic, I'm not sure you're right. (I'm assuming this since rates aren't OP because they were just that powerful, totally ignoring wheter or not they're OP in the game). When it comes to caliber on cannons, it's a measure of the weight of the projectile it can launch, and it's pretty logical, 20lb's shoot 20lb projectiles, 40lb's fires a projectile of 40lb. When it comes to spheres though, what actually makes count when it comes to accuracy, it's how soon the projectile will start rotating around its on axis, something that every spheric projectile do. If I recall correct (I might be wrong though, was ages ago I studied math), the larger the mass of the sphere, the longer it takes until it starts rotating around its own axis. When rotation around the axis starts to occur, I think the terminology for it is picking up torque, the projectile starts to deviate from its trajectory, the direction depends on in wich direction the projectile starts to spin. In 18th century warfare, this manifested itself as musketeer bullets (who was spheric) after a certain distance went all over the place, left, right, up, down, so an estimated amount of hits could be expected at various distances. For Cannons on the battlefield, this was a bit different, I suppose because their projectiles were heavier. To sum it up, I think the developers have done it right if heavier caliber cannons have better accuracy, since the deviation of the projectiles should be less the higher the mass of said projectile.

You are right, but I don't think the projectiles deviation will be particulary big compared to the gunners aiming. I mean, it's not like deviation will move a cannonball 50 yards to left on 500 yards, while rotating the cannon itself 1-2 degress will have huge difference on 500+ yards. Do you get my point?

[C G Wrangel]

Originally Posted by CaptBarbossa93 You are right, but I don't think the projectiles deviation will be particulary big compared to the gunners aiming. I mean, it's not like deviation will move a cannonball 50 yards to left on 500 yards, while rotating the cannon itself 1-2 degress will have huge difference on 500+ yards. Do you get my point?

I do get your point, but that's never the issue. The problem is that you never know to what direction the sphere will rotate. So if you fire a salvo of 30 cannons, all projectiles can, and most likely will, take different trajectories, some go to the left, some to the right, some up, some down, and for each and everyone the deviation is a different degree most likely. All kind of things effect this, such as leftovers in the barrel, impurities in the gunpowder, wind, you name it.
So, for a lighter projectile, say a 18lb, the likelyness that a deviation downwards that is so big that it will splash in the water infront of the ship, is much greater than for a heavier projectile, like a 28lb.
I assume now that each projectile is loading in the correct way, with sufficient amount of gunpowders and such.

[John Blackhard]

If we go realistic we should make avcom one hit kills and stop fists parrying sword hits too.

Heck, just remove avcom while you're at it.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by John Blackhard If we go realistic we should make avcom one hit kills and stop fists parrying sword hits too. Heck, just remove avcom while you're at it.

i need to test it but i bet that a wenden could one shot the priv mig boat in the front at close range. plus with less buffs as what your trinity had running

if not it would be very close to sinking it.

[Thorin Eikinskjald]

When dealing with accuracies in naval warfare, you have a lot of variables.

1) Windage: Cannons in this period were smooth-bored, and the rounds were not of a sufficiently standard caliber. So when the gunpowder went off, the ball travelling down the barrel literally bounced from wall to wall. A minute amount, but enought to really screw up accuracy. Incidently, the same thing on land is what caused soldiers in this time period to line up and fire vollies - no one could aim accurately but that mass of fire going downrange was bound to hit SOMETHING.

2) Aiming: Cannons were mounted on a carriage, with the gun being elevated by a wedge pushed under the rear end. Not a fine adjustment, in most cases it was a fairly rough estimate of the proper angle. In addition, in this period most cannons were still fired by matchlock - a lit piece of rope that was touched to the touchole - from the side of the cannon. So the gunner wasn't actually looking down the rudimentary sights at the time of actual fire - and there was a delay from the time the match was touched to the hole, and the piece actually fired. More inaccuracy ....

3) Aiming 2: Even later, when the flintlock mechanism was developed and mounted (first by the English, much later by others) the gun captain looking down the grooves in the top of the piece could in many cases not actually SEE the target - he fired on command, and spotting reports were passed down from the upper deck to the officer in charge of the gunnery decks (who also could rarely see the target), who then passed that on to the gun captains.

4) Heeling: Ships at sea don't sit still. Battles were not fought, except in very rare cases, in any kind of rough weather - but the decks did roll, and that had to be accounted for as well.

5) Angle of fire: The amount that a gun could be trained in a fore-n-aft direction was a lot narrower than we have in game. The gun tackle with the lines attached to ringbolts on the hull between gunports wasn't invented until after our period (1779).

You get the idea - I literally could go on for pages. But the upshot is that most captains - and as kind of a tradition in the English navy - did not open up until within "pistol shot" - point blank range. In game terms in swivel range. So, add in a true method of accuracy, then allow for an MMO game mechanic to SLIGHTLY modify it, and we have solved a lot of this.